Bike won't rev past 9.5k rpms! HELP! - GSXR.com
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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Bike won't rev past 9.5k rpms! HELP!

Alright guys, I have a K5 750. Bought the bike about 2.5 years ago and around the second week of owning it, the bike will not rev past 9.5k rpms under a load. It revs out to 12.5k in neutral. When it hits that certain rpm, like clockwork, the bike bogs down almost like a rev limiter. No matter what I try, I can't get it past that rpm. The bike runs absolutely fine, pulls hard etc.. just up until that 9.5k rpm mark, whilst riding, it just hits a wall. The FI light gets triggered once I hit this so called "wall". Codes C25 and C26 pop up. Those are the cylinders/ignition signals #2 and #3.

So.. what have I done so far? I researched this issue and started becoming slightly obsessed on how to fix it.

-First I removed the power commander that was already on it.
-Checked the fuel pump and filter, then said **** it and replaced the entire pump.
-Changed the plugs.
-Changed the Coils.
-New Rectifier
-Tried bypassing the side stand swtich (LOL)
-Changed intake pressure sensor
-Air Temperature sensor changed
-looked for burnt out wires in the side wire harness under left fairing.
-checked air box, replaced both filters in there.
-Used SeaFoam in vacuum lines and gas tank
-Checked throttle position sensor (-C00)
-Swapped ECMs with another K5 750
-Crank shaft position sensor was changed.
-Intake camshaft was changed out
-Camshaft position sensor replaced
-Cam chain was replaced, along with the guide.
-good continuity at coils/various sensors.
-Injectors were professionally cleaned out
-fuel pressure test was good.
-Compression test was in spec.
-Leakdown test was below 1%.
-My clutch isn't bypassed (i have to pull in clutch to start bike)

My wallet hurts, trust me...
So after all of that... still can't rev it all the way out to the true redline. There's no way something mechanical can stop the bike at the exact rpm every single time. With that being said, it has to be electrical. Some kind of sensor or a short in the wire harness that is putting the ECM into some kind of LIMP-mode. I don't know, the next step is finding a used wire harness online somewhere and changing it out. I'm going to order the Atmospheric Pressure sensor (the one under the seat) and swap that out too. I'm at a loss guys. Any help is appreciated.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:12 AM
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I see the fuel pump pressure test. Did you do a volume test?

It sounds classic for a fuel restriction problem.

Do you still get the C25 and C26 consistently?

Did you check the connectors at the ecm for corrosion and damaged pins?

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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:22 AM
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Wow, sorry for your troubles.

you fixed/replaced some things I never would have even looked at. The intake camshaft? - excessive wear?
I understand maybe that you were redlining in neutral as a test-
Maybe it's just me (probably is)- I would never take my engines to redline in neutral.

Other than what WB suggested- I got nothing.

Good luck, let us know if/when you get it figured out

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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rv6john View Post
I see the fuel pump pressure test. Did you do a volume test?

It sounds classic for a fuel restriction problem.

Do you still get the C25 and C26 consistently?

Did you check the connectors at the ecm for corrosion and damaged pins?


Pressure and volume were good. The C25 and C26 both show when I plug into dealer mode, however, the do not appear until I hit that certain rpm. As for the ecm, I briefly looked and didn't see anything. I'll go back and look at the connectors as well as the wires that were spliced into from the PCIII.

Last edited by A Scamm; 08-01-2017 at 06:59 AM.
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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Wow, sorry for your troubles.

you fixed/replaced some things I never would have even looked at. The intake camshaft? - excessive wear?
I understand maybe that you were redlining in neutral as a test-
Maybe it's just me (probably is)- I would never take my engines to redline in neutral.

Other than what WB suggested- I got nothing.

Good luck, let us know if/when you get it figured out

Sometimes the intake cam shaft jumps a few degrees and throws the bike into a different map to protect it. A Suzuki tech told me that over the phone and sure enough my camshaft had been shifted (there are little arrows that should line up). Unfortunately, didn't solve the problem though lol. I don't usually rev that high in neutral. That was strictly to see if the problem still exists haha
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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 06:56 AM
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So you get C25 and C26 when it hits 12,500 RPM or there about? And you threw all that money away at unrelated items? Fuck it. Buy a new wiring harness..... might as well since everything else is new.
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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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So you get C25 and C26 when it hits 12,500 RPM or there about? And you threw all that money away at unrelated items? Fuck it. Buy a new wiring harness..... might as well since everything else is new.

Correct. And yes, I did spend quite a few bucks, but I wouldn't say on unrelated items. I've researched this issue for a long time and that list I've compiled was from other riders who have had this issue, Suzuki, and various bike shops. This issue is extremely difficult to figure out because there are so many variables that causes the bike to do this. If you do a quick google search, you'll see a ton of people have this problem and each solution was different. But like you said, the bike is basically brand new at this point lol. Harness on the horizon
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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 07:45 AM
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A big clue would be what the engine feels like when it falters.

If it's a fuel problem, the bike would just sag in performance as you reach that limit but would be relatively smooth. Maybe some mild misfires, but it would be so lean, they would not be very strong.

I would think you could tell the difference between a fuel issue and two cylinders going off line at the same time.

Keep us posted on how you proceed.

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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 09:44 AM
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The biggest clue was that only two ignition modules faulted. Changing the other stuff based of symptoms is useless unless you eliminate all the error codes first. ONLY 2 modules would point to the modules, ECU, or wiring. First thing you should have done is swap 1&2, and 3&4. Then the plugs. Then gone straight to the wiring harness for loose connections.
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Pins/connectors all good at ecm. Nothing's loose. Swapped around the coils/plugs for sh!ts and gigs, same thing. I'll post a video of the issue maybe tomorrow. In the meantime I'll be looking for a used wire harness online. Any other ideas are welcome.
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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-01-2017, 05:18 PM
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Pins/connectors all good at ecm. Nothing's loose. Swapped around the coils/plugs for sh!ts and gigs, same thing. I'll post a video of the issue maybe tomorrow. In the meantime I'll be looking for a used wire harness online. Any other ideas are welcome.
If you have a buddy with the same bike, just for grins, swap the gauge cluster before you buy wiring.

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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 05:47 AM
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Not sure what swapping clusters would prove.....

Different ECU and different coils and the code always pops the same for #2 and #3 at 9500 RPM. Can't be a coil, can't be the ECU, can't be plugs. Shouldn't be the sensors (that'd affect all). But why 9500k? Some harmonic or something that exposes a loose connection??? The wiring is the only thing that makes sense. Or, you said you did things you actually didn't. Not calling you a liar, but I've had people say they did things because in their mind it couldn't possibly be the cause and they didn't want the forum telling them to do it. So just for the sake of asking... are you positive you put new coils in, new plugs, etc.?

And just an afterthought. You said you pulled your powercommander. Just for shits, pull the injectors and swap #1 & #2 and #3 & #4. Fuel isn't conductive, so it shouldn't be shorting the plug, but what if the plugs are getting wet and raising the "gap" resistance so high the plug won't fire?
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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Not sure what swapping clusters would prove.....

Different ECU and different coils and the code always pops the same for #2 and #3 at 9500 RPM. Can't be a coil, can't be the ECU, can't be plugs. Shouldn't be the sensors (that'd affect all). But why 9500k? Some harmonic or something that exposes a loose connection??? The wiring is the only thing that makes sense. Or, you said you did things you actually didn't. Not calling you a liar, but I've had people say they did things because in their mind it couldn't possibly be the cause and they didn't want the forum telling them to do it. So just for the sake of asking... are you positive you put new coils in, new plugs, etc.?

And just an afterthought. You said you pulled your powercommander. Just for shits, pull the injectors and swap #1 & #2 and #3 & #4. Fuel isn't conductive, so it shouldn't be shorting the plug, but what if the plugs are getting wet and raising the "gap" resistance so high the plug won't fire?
I get what you're saying, but I 100% did everything on that list. Wasn't all at once, but over the course of about a year and a half. At first I thought it had to be the coils because of the codes the bike was throwing and also because the previous owner had Yamaha R1 coils in there. It actually was labeled that on the side of the coil lol. So I dumped a couple hundred on brand new coils thinking that was it. Joke's on me.

As far as the injector thing, wouldn't the bike's performance be hindered if the plugs weren't firing? The bike rides absolutely fine up until 9.5k rpms. Like you said, the wiring is the only thing that makes sense. A mechanical issue wouldn't stop the bike at exactly those rpms every single time. However, the part that gets me is that it's 9.5k under a load and 12.5k in neutral. Why is it different? More fuel needed under a load so it throws the mixture more out of whack?
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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:31 AM
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As far as the injector thing, wouldn't the bike's performance be hindered if the plugs weren't firing? The bike rides absolutely fine up until 9.5k rpms. Like you said, the wiring is the only thing that makes sense. A mechanical issue wouldn't stop the bike at exactly those rpms every single time. However, the part that gets me is that it's 9.5k under a load and 12.5k in neutral. Why is it different? More fuel needed under a load so it throws the mixture more out of whack?
@Chuckster @Tecate don't the secondary injectors come into play just about 9.5k rpm?

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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:37 AM
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Yamaha coils? Sounds like the previous owner was chasing the same gremlin.

The symptom of running out of power at a specific RPM usually points to the fuel pump not being able to meet demand. But that wouldn't have anything to do with two ignition codes. I'm just trying to think outside the box. I have no idea if it would throw a code with a missing plug. Basically, if the gap was full of fuel, that's what you'd have. If for some reason 2 & 3 were sticking open around 9.5k, it's possible..... but I have zero knowledge of this ever happening. Nothing about your situation adds up. I would say ECU is the only thing that makes sense, but you already swapped that. All that's left is wiring.... but even that shouldn't tie to a specific RPM.

I think you've earned the title "most fucked up FI problem".
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post #16 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:42 AM
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@Chuckster @Tecate don't the secondary injectors come into play just about 9.5k rpm?
I don't know but that would make sense. The engine would rev higher under no load on the main injectors.

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post #17 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:53 AM
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I'm just reaching for what might be happening at that RPM.

Of course this does not address the ignition fault codes.
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post #18 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:58 AM
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I don't know but that would make sense. The engine would rev higher under no load on the main injectors.
No secondary injectors on the 2004/2005. But, idea combined with the yamaha coils.... could this be a frankenbike with parts from a 2006?
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post #19 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 10:59 AM
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No secondary injectors on the 2004/2005.
I did not know that.

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post #20 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 11:44 AM
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No secondary injectors on the 2004/2005. But, idea combined with the yamaha coils.... could this be a frankenbike with parts from a 2006?
You are right. I did not pay attention to the year.

Back in the "Who knows, but easy to check" category. Have you checked the charging/system voltage?

Here are some suggested causes from the K6 manual for those codes.

"Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery"

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post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 03:23 PM
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What if its hitting redline, but your tach is just off some how?
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post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 04:54 PM
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Wouldn't explain the 12.5k in neutral.

And rv6John, I'd think poor voltage would present randomly across all 4 coils if that were the case and not just #2 & #3. Just an assumption on my part though.
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post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 05:03 PM
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And rv6John, I'd think poor voltage would present randomly across all 4 coils if that were the case and not just #2 & #3. Just an assumption on my part though.
I'm sure you're right. I just saw that mentioned and it's easy to test and eliminate.

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post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 02:00 AM
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Did you actually swap coils 1&2 and 3&4 and see if the codes change?


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post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Did you actually swap coils 1&2 and 3&4 and see if the codes change?


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* probably, depending on time of day

Brand new coils were installed. The codes were consistent through everything I did unfortunately :(
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post #26 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 06:18 AM Thread Starter
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You are right. I did not pay attention to the year.

Back in the "Who knows, but easy to check" category. Have you checked the charging/system voltage?

Here are some suggested causes from the K6 manual for those codes.

"Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery"
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Wouldn't explain the 12.5k in neutral.

And rv6John, I'd think poor voltage would present randomly across all 4 coils if that were the case and not just #2 & #3. Just an assumption on my part though.


Ok, so in the PDF service manual for the 05 it says:

'When the C24/25/26/27 codes are produced, it's an ignition signal. The CKP sensor (pick-up coil) signal is produced, but signal from ignition coil is interrupted continuous by 8 times or more. In this case, the code C24/25/26/27 is indicated. To Check: Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery.'

The battery itself is okay, but would the stator be next in line in terms of power supply?
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post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 06:30 AM
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The battery itself is okay, but would the stator be next in line in terms of power supply?
Just check what the battery/system voltage is when the bike is revved to 5k rpm. It should be 14.0-15.5 volts. Most bike seem to be about 14.8 volts.

I believe their thinking is that most electronics play well with low voltage.

It would still help to have a better description of what the bike does when it acts up.

Is it always exactly 9.5k rpm or does it vary? (not interested in the neutral rev)
Is the failure abrupt and rough or does it just taper off in power smoothy. What does it sound like? What is the exhaust noise change?
Does it continue to accelerate slowly or just stop?

You get the idea.

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If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
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post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Update

I had a few things I needed to take care of and didn't get a chance to even ride the last few weeks. However, I got around to changing the wire harness... all hooked up nicely, no splicing. Same deal. I've reached the point where I'm all out of ideas and just want to sell the damn thing.
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post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 09:41 AM
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Just check what the battery/system voltage is when the bike is revved to 5k rpm. It should be 14.0-15.5 volts. Most bike seem to be about 14.8 volts.

I believe their thinking is that most electronics play well with low voltage.

It would still help to have a better description of what the bike does when it acts up.

Is it always exactly 9.5k rpm or does it vary? (not interested in the neutral rev)
Is the failure abrupt and rough or does it just taper off in power smoothy. What does it sound like? What is the exhaust noise change?
Does it continue to accelerate slowly or just stop?

You get the idea.
John is a wonderful resource.
If you answer his questions he may be able to help.

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post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Just check what the battery/system voltage is when the bike is revved to 5k rpm. It should be 14.0-15.5 volts. Most bike seem to be about 14.8 volts.

I believe their thinking is that most electronics play well with low voltage.

It would still help to have a better description of what the bike does when it acts up.

Is it always exactly 9.5k rpm or does it vary? (not interested in the neutral rev)
Is the failure abrupt and rough or does it just taper off in power smoothy. What does it sound like? What is the exhaust noise change?
Does it continue to accelerate slowly or just stop?

You get the idea.

I checked the battery, at 5ks rpms it's at 14.2 volts.

So under a load, the bike hits 9.5k rpms and bogs in and out. Dropping the rpms a couple hundred and firing back to 9.5k. The power of the bike completely cuts out (not the electronics). It can maintain the MPH of 9.5k rpms but will not let it go past. It sounds like a slower version of the actual rev limiter. About half the speed I would say. The exhaust pops a sounds like it'll shoot a flame. Once i hit that point at 9.5k, the FI code is thrown (c25 C26). Sometimes the FI light is solid red, sometimes it flashes. I don't know what the flashing means.
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post #31 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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I may have moved the TPS sensor a hair when replacing the wire harness. I put the bike into dealer mode and on start up it's C00 but the (-) is on the top. For some reason I cannot get it back to the middle. Also the dash is on the bottom when the codes are thrown (_C25 _C26). I don't know if this matters in terms of the issue I'm having.
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post #32 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 11:43 AM
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I may have moved the TPS sensor a hair when replacing the wire harness. I put the bike into dealer mode and on start up it's C00 but the (-) is on the top. For some reason I cannot get it back to the middle. Also the dash is on the bottom when the codes are thrown (_C25 _C26). I don't know if this matters in terms of the issue I'm having.
You're adjusting the wrong thing. You have moved the secondary throttle blade sensor, not the throttle position sensor.

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post #33 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:17 AM Thread Starter
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You're adjusting the wrong thing. You have moved the secondary throttle blade sensor, not the throttle position sensor.
Yep, right after I looked back at the manual and had a "slap yourself in the face" moment
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post #34 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:21 AM Thread Starter
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Anyone have any ideas?

I'm about to rip out the harness I just put in, get my money back and just give up on the bike.
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post #35 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:38 AM
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Again in the "Who knows, but it is easy to check" department.

Is the clutch safety switch bypassed?

I had a friend with a new track bike, he jumped the switch and the bike would fall on it's face about 12.5k. He reconnected the switch and it ran great.

I don't think he had any ignition codes though....

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Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
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post #36 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Scamm View Post
Ok, so in the PDF service manual for the 05 it says:

'When the C24/25/26/27 codes are produced, it's an ignition signal. The CKP sensor (pick-up coil) signal is produced, but signal from ignition coil is interrupted continuous by 8 times or more. In this case, the code C24/25/26/27 is indicated. To Check: Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery.'

The battery itself is okay, but would the stator be next in line in terms of power supply?
Usually in those kind of scenarios, the ECU sees the CKP signal, but no signal from the coils for 8 times. The manual is a bit loose on this. It doesn't specify that the signal interruption is all 4, or will pinpoint which one. I would hope that it would pinpoint.

The ignition isn't all that complicated. Since you're just getting 2 codes, we can focus on the coils and ECU. All the coils share the same power source on the primary. Each primary is then ground coupled via the transistor in the ECU. Again, the actual ground is shared. All of the secondaries on the coils share this power source as well, and ground across the spark plug gap to the engine.

I think there's something missing, but I'd have to do a test on my bike to confirm. My assumption is if you remove the connection to one of the coils, would the ECU code for that coil? If it does, then there's another circuit in the ECU that does a detection.

Back to your problem. You get only 2 codes. If my above assumption is correct, you've got a fixed list of possibilities.
1) The ECU is bad. Either the triggering or detection circuits are a problem.
2) The coils are bad. Assuming the detection is looking for a specific resistance level from the coil, you're getting out of range somehow.
3) Related to #2, a poor connection in the harness connections. Bad connections raise resistance.
4) Bad connections internal to the harness. 1 wire is going to four. They accomplish this by crimp splicing in the harness. A resistance measurement from the coil power feeds to the engine stop switch should read near 0. If there is variation, those connections might be corroded/compromised within the harness.


As I'm studying this diagram and thinking about it, if it was the CKP or CMP, it should hit all four coils. Frankly, if it was anything outside the individual coil circuits themselves (KS switch, key cylinder, kill switch, etc.) it should code across all four. Because you're only getting two codes, there must be some sort of detection in the ECU. That limits the problem options to the ECU, the coils, or the wiring between them.
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post #37 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 10:01 AM
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Looking at the wiring diagram, it looks possible to jump battery voltage directly to the coil feeds with a jumper wire. That would maybe eliminate bad feed wire to the coils.
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post #38 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rv6john View Post
Again in the "Who knows, but it is easy to check" department.

Is the clutch safety switch bypassed?

I had a friend with a new track bike, he jumped the switch and the bike would fall on it's face about 12.5k. He reconnected the switch and it ran great.

I don't think he had any ignition codes though....

Nope, I have to pull the clutch to start the bike. I've actually read that it does that, very weird
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post #39 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
Usually in those kind of scenarios, the ECU sees the CKP signal, but no signal from the coils for 8 times. The manual is a bit loose on this. It doesn't specify that the signal interruption is all 4, or will pinpoint which one. I would hope that it would pinpoint.

The ignition isn't all that complicated. Since you're just getting 2 codes, we can focus on the coils and ECU. All the coils share the same power source on the primary. Each primary is then ground coupled via the transistor in the ECU. Again, the actual ground is shared. All of the secondaries on the coils share this power source as well, and ground across the spark plug gap to the engine.

I think there's something missing, but I'd have to do a test on my bike to confirm. My assumption is if you remove the connection to one of the coils, would the ECU code for that coil? If it does, then there's another circuit in the ECU that does a detection.

Back to your problem. You get only 2 codes. If my above assumption is correct, you've got a fixed list of possibilities.
1) The ECU is bad. Either the triggering or detection circuits are a problem.
2) The coils are bad. Assuming the detection is looking for a specific resistance level from the coil, you're getting out of range somehow.
3) Related to #2, a poor connection in the harness connections. Bad connections raise resistance.
4) Bad connections internal to the harness. 1 wire is going to four. They accomplish this by crimp splicing in the harness. A resistance measurement from the coil power feeds to the engine stop switch should read near 0. If there is variation, those connections might be corroded/compromised within the harness.


As I'm studying this diagram and thinking about it, if it was the CKP or CMP, it should hit all four coils. Frankly, if it was anything outside the individual coil circuits themselves (KS switch, key cylinder, kill switch, etc.) it should code across all four. Because you're only getting two codes, there must be some sort of detection in the ECU. That limits the problem options to the ECU, the coils, or the wiring between them.

I wish it were that simple. Those 4 possibilities make perfect sense, however, still not the solution. The ECM was swapped with another k4/k5 gixxer. I bought brand new coils and swapped 1&2/3&4 to see if the codes jump. I replaced each sensor in the FI circuit. I also tested the continuity from the wiring of those sensors to the harness. This then lead me to believe, like you said, there's some kind of hack-job done to the wire harness. Replaced the harness and the only thing that changed was that my rear turn signals no longer worked...LOL.
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post #40 of 65 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobl View Post
Looking at the wiring diagram, it looks possible to jump battery voltage directly to the coil feeds with a jumper wire. That would maybe eliminate bad feed wire to the coils.
The feed wires to the coils were replaced when I replaced the entire wire harness. It's all attached to the harness
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