'06 600 Bogging at 1/4 throttle plus PAIR code - GSXR.com
 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-08-2019, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
'06 600 Bogging at 1/4 throttle plus PAIR code

So another adventure along the way of attempting to resurrect this 2006 GSX-R600 the Missus grabbed off Craigslist for a very low price.
First was a blown freeze plug and water in the oil and oil in the water. I made some progress there, hoping that issue is under control.
So I rode it just now with new oil and filter installed and I now I get a serious bogging of the engine at exactly the same place in the throttle position, about 20-25% open. It's not related to revs or road speed- it's an exact point in the throttle operation where it suddenly goes "blaggghh" and stops gaining much speed.
I don't think it did that previously, although my riding is confined to a few hundred yards with the oil contamination issue, just going down the street to warm up the oil and agitate the contamination to drain it.
During all the other to-do's, it just showed a C49 code now, the PAIR valve. I have a sneaking suspicion that while dismantling things to get inside the valve cover, I pulled a wire out of the connector.
Also, the previous owner disconnected the PAIR piping, I do believe. The hose that departs the valve towards the rear of the engine simply goes nowhere. It just lays there, open on the further end.
My forum searches aren't producing quite the right set of circumstances.
If this was carburetors, I'd swear the needle and/or main jet was clogged.
(Edited to add- that wayward hose from the PAIR valve, I belatedly discovered, goes to a nipple on the underside of the airbox. Don't know if it was like that before or if I just plain missed it.)

Last edited by Cherryriver; 09-08-2019 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Additional info
Cherryriver is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-08-2019, 12:38 PM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
Pair is on the front. On the rear, that would be the crank case breather which should go to the airbox.
Chuckster is offline  
post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-08-2019, 02:24 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
So what does it do if you keep opening the throttle and rpms go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-08-2019, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
I'd describe it as either staggering, with limited acceleration, or even eight-stroking.
The odd thing is the exactness of the occurrence.
I am a newbie to this exhaust valve thingie, too. The seller said the motor went bad on it so he pulled off the whole mechanism. My early impression here is that if it sits in the default position, nothing much happens. I don't have the cable and hardware from the seller.
I should add, the gasoline is suspect, too. It only smells kind of bad. I added some Seafoam but heaven knows how old it is.
I ought to get it out of there, but disposal is a big problem. I no longer have a lawn to mow, which was how I disposed of old gas. I should dump it in my neighbor's compressor fuel tank. Heh.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 06:19 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
Bad fuel is something you should rule out. If for no other reason because it's really easy. A fuel pump flow test would be recommended too.
Chuckster is offline  
post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
I got a little test ride just now and coaxed a pair of codes: C24 and C27, "Ignition signal" on #1 and 4. Hoping bad spark plugs...
At least, that's an inexpensive fix.
So many things to go over and check out on a derelict.
I do appreciate the assistance!

Edited to add, upon further education:
The shop manual doesn't mention bad plugs, it goes to the coils and related parts. Back under the covers we go.

Last edited by Cherryriver; 09-09-2019 at 07:22 AM.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 08:28 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
Check for loose and corroded connections. Swap coil #1 with #2 and #3 with #4. See if the problem stays with C24 and C27, or changes to C25 and C26.
rv6john likes this.
Chuckster is offline  
post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Yes, that would be good. A bit of rain is curtailing the testing for now.
I also popped for a new battery. The one that came with the bike was of dubious quality and ran down a couple of times during the early experimenting. I doubt it's this cause of this particular problem, but it needed replacing anyway.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 11:14 AM
Novice
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 37
The Gr leads from the coils commonly go the a distribution block where they connect to an O/W from the engine stop switch. The distribution block looks like a female electrical connector with a black cover. It's commonly located along the rear of the valve cover, just follow the Gr leads. You could check to see that there's no problem there.

Last edited by billv; 09-09-2019 at 11:46 AM.
billv is offline  
post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-09-2019, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Good one, I will do that.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Not the coils

So I tried the suggestions above with no change improvement.
I swapped the coils around and still got the same indications, C24 and C27, #1 and #4 ignition coil.
I checked the gang connector mentioned and took another look at the coil connectors. Nothing is visibly wrong. In fact, they all look pretty good, considering.
It's still hard for me to get away from the idea of a fuel injector problem after parsing the wording in the manual about this code:
"CKP sensor (pick-up coil) signal is produced, but signal from ignition coil is interrupted 8 times or more continuously. In this case, the code C24 (P0351), C25 (P0352), C26 (P0353) or C27 (P0354) is indicated."
Admitting my limited knowledge about this sort of thing, could not a clogging injector cause a misfire "8 times or more" if it's not supplying the juice?
An ECM failure is less appealing to contemplate after all.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 06:26 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
I see from some further forum searching that this problem isn't completely unique. I refer to this thread.
One guy never came back after replacing just about everything but the seat cover. Another, later, poster concluded that his crankshaft position sensor was bad and replacing it ended the problem.
I notice that the faults reported are the cylinder pairs that (I believe) fire together, 1+4 and 2+3. If this was an older two-coil bike, you'd look at the offending coil and connection.
The tough thing is that the fault and the bogging are occurring for the other guys at a specific RPM, and mine I swear is a throttle setting.
Temperature and running time aren't a factor for me. Given the fact that the Missus still hasn't hit the DMV for a live license plate my test track is a lightly-used, very short forest preserve access road near our house.
My engine was afflicted with milkshake after a blown freeze plug. Could this have garbarged up the CKP sensor? Sure, it clogged the oil pressure switch when I positively knew I had oil pressure. But the fact that it's only killing one half of the sparkers seems to suggest that it hasn't.
I will have a look at the CKP sensor, for all the good that will do.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Opened the CKP sensor cover, saw a few metal flakes stuck to the magnet and blew them off. Otherwise, looked pretty good.
Ran the manual's ohmmeter tests that I could with my conventional meter. All good. I haven't had a peak-voltage reading meter in a long time and I'm not getting one today.
Again, no visible problems with the connectors.
Still gets the C24-27 code when the throttle opened up a fair amount. Also noted is more popping in the exhaust than I would expect from a stock system, for whatever that's worth.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 10:51 AM
Novice
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 37
"Opened the CKP sensor cover..."

Do the same with the CMP sensor.

Any indications that this bike once had a Power Commander?

I'm skeptical of your clogged injector theory but you could also try swapping the injectors.

Last edited by billv; 09-10-2019 at 10:55 AM.
billv is offline  
post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
I have no reason think there was a Power Commander, and I haven't noticed one yet. Nor do I see any harness tampering evidence, not that I've searched as completely as possible.
Pulled the camshaft position sensor. Looked perfectly normal, no mung or debris. Now, during the freeze plug replacement I did clean the interior of the valve cover with mineral spirits, as the white goo was quite thick. The Missus, a chef by trade, pronounced the cover to be frosted on the inside.
However, a short test ride had the same bogging issue and produced the same C24-27 code.
Think I may be yanking some injectors or something. I too was not sold on that as the issue, but if there were no electronic gadgetry involved, I would have taken the initial symptoms to be interrupted fuel flow anyway.
I've done a lot of derelicts over the decades (none this modern) so I'm pretty much accustomed to that sort of thing. In fact, I just R+R-ed the carbs on a $300 Concours for the third time and replaced the dang pilot jets. Still got issues, but it ran pretty cleanly for a 15-mile loop and got home under its own power.
Still, appreciate the suggestions.

Last edited by Cherryriver; 09-10-2019 at 12:48 PM.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Say, do I really need to replace the injector O-rings if I pull them for cleaning? Guess that could be a bad place to cheat. It's just that waiting for parts slows things down.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-10-2019, 01:29 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherryriver View Post
Say, do I really need to replace the injector O-rings if I pull them for cleaning? Guess that could be a bad place to cheat. It's just that waiting for parts slows things down.
I'm pretty sure there is an automotive equivalent for the injector o-rings. FelPro makes a bunch of them and you an match them up at the auto parts store. A search here may pop up a part number for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 05:04 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
I've gotten away with not changing them. But at the time, my bike was also only 3 years old.
Chuckster is offline  
post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 05:19 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
The math is hard on this one: a full set of 16 O-rings from the dealer is about $160.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:17 AM
Rider
 
Spyder13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 378
Garage
Wow, that seems pretty expensive. I am 96% certain that automotive seals would be a LOT less than that...

On to injectors... I do not believe that system is smart enough to throw a coil code if the injector is causing a misfire. The coil, and plug would still be firing, weather it has fuel to burn or not. I am betting on crank, or cam sensors... Maybe even both, though not very likely they are both bad... And i don't think anybody has mentioned the TPS? Is it adjusted correctly? Does it have a dead spot?

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
― Hunter S. Thompson
Spyder13 is offline  
post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Spyder, I'm pretty sure what you say is true.
What makes me sort of consider injector clogging is that it's staying with the same two cylinders, 1 and 4 even when I flipped the coils around. And, the misfiring is throttle-position related, as if, just speculating here, the secondary injectors are not contributing. But that's just guessing.
But then, on a lot of bikes that pair fires together, and I would have to take a deeper dive into the GSXR600 book to know if that's the case with this bike. If so, then it could be reasonable to expect something in the spark-triggering. Except, the manual says that the coils are getting the fire signal.
I'm getting a little more inclined to get a set of coils, but I don't really want to get into the parts-changing diagnosis thing if I can help it.
The fact that this exact thing has afflicted others here and they went way down the rabbit hole chasing it is making me hold short. So far, in my searching the forum, the only successful resolution came from a guy who changed out his coils, I think.
Also, I took a look inside the fuel tank with a good light and didn't see anything particularly frightening, including the exterior of the fuel pump. That's not to say there isn't clogging in the filters, but without a lot of junk showing, it makes me want to think the filters are okay.
Plus, again: the code is for ignition.
One thing about going around in a circle is that you get familiar with where you're lost.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 11:40 AM
Novice
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 37
"I notice that the faults reported are the cylinder pairs that (I believe) fire together, 1+4 and 2+3." and "bikes that pair fires together"

AFAIK the pistons go up and down together but they fire on successive strokes. Otherwise it would sound like a two cylinder. The K1 1000 service manual had a nice Injection Timing diagram showing all that but it has since been omitted.

$160 does sound like a lot. That's $10/O-ring. Maybe I'm a cheap-ass but I'd be thinking in terms of $2/O-ring. The quality may vary but there's lots of sellers. Just pay attention to getting the correct size.

Last edited by billv; 09-11-2019 at 11:43 AM.
billv is offline  
post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Well, on a lot of four-cylinders in my past experience, they often fire a "waste" spark on the exhaust stroke just because it's easier to set up the triggers that way. I was guessing that might be the case here, but poring through the manual, perhaps not. The ECU has separate outputs for each cylinder. I imagine the crank trigger hits each revolution, though.
The o-rings indeed are about $7 and $9, plus tax. Partzilla's price is pretty close to that, too. Yeah, it's a lot.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 01:09 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
Have you checked the pins and connectors on the ECM? Corrosion? Or sometimes the male portion gets pushed back in the connector making a poor connection.

The ECM in your bike is not that sophisticated. It does not detect misfires so I don't believe it is a fuel issue.

It also does not work in "pairs" as far as I know. I had a bad coil on one of my bikes and it just reported the error on one coil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
The ECM connections appeared to be in good order. I have yet to find anywhere on this bike a corroded connection. Typically, if you've got one you've got several, but those parts seem clean.
I replaced the spark plugs. The ones in there actually looked quite good for their age; they seem to be a good 5K miles old at the least, but the color was nice and there was no fouling and little electrode deterioration if any. But, new ones in there now.
Fired it up, and sure enough, whack the throttle and I get C24-27.
Having just also put on some new Pirelli Diablo Corso IIIs and a new battery, along with lots of oil and sundries, I'm denting the available budget. Not quite wrecked it yet, so maybe I can extract enough for new coils. Since, after all, the thing thinks there's a coil problem.
So now torn between the aftermarket one at a buck and a quarter or Ebay-ed used stockers. Going four hundred for new OEMs is a bit tough.
Possibly not relevant, but I also have a ZRX and the ZRX forum is wonderful beyond belief. I have noted threads over time where the poster converted his Rex to stick coils and then went back since the stick coils were not as reliable. I'm not saying that has a lot of bearing here, but it does come to mind.
This GSXR shows about 22,000 miles (and no crash evidence!)
Cherryriver is offline  
post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:12 PM
Rider
 
Vader225's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Wilson NC
Posts: 337
Garage
You can get injector O-rings as long as you have a good one to measure. I know I've had luck looking for them in the Hydraulic section before. You just match up the size in mm and it's the same. get them for anywhere from 30 cents to couple dollars. Any good hydraulic supply should have them.

Not Grinding, Not Riding
Vader225 is offline  
post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:16 PM
Novice
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 37
If you've swapped the #1 for the #2 and the #3 for the #4 coils and still see the same error, it tends to say that the coils are OK. I'm still thinking in terms of power to the coils.

I don't have the K6 600 wiring diagram but it ought to be similar to the K6 1000 diagram, which I do. We've talked earlier about a distribution block for the Gr leads to the coils. It's supplied by an O/W lead that comes from the engine stop switch and also supplies the PAIR solenoid, ECM, dealer mode connector, fuel pump relay, and fan relay. With that many splits, there's likely to be another distribution block for the O/W leads. You could try looking for it and making sure that it is also OK. Unfortunately I don't have any idea where it is. Also I don't see why a problem with it would only effect the #1 and #4 coils.

Last edited by billv; 09-11-2019 at 10:19 PM.
billv is offline  
post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
billv, I'm going back in there with that in mind, and with a meter. And all the persnickety patience I can muster.
I think I also need to have a look at the wire terminations in the plug caps, as if they might have been pulled loose during coil removal.
The fact that others seem to have been afflicted by the same pair type of failure still sticks. I believe I've seen three other threads where the outside pair or the inside pair gave trouble, with 1-4 being the more common. I keep getting the feeling there's a clue there and I'm missing it.
The rest of the bike has come along pretty well. Now, wouldn't be great if I could get the engine running halfway right?
Cherryriver is offline  
post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 01:15 PM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
I think it's going to be the crank or cam sensor. The cam sensor is really only useful to tell the ECM if cylinder 1 is TDC on compression stroke or TDC on exhaust. After that, it's every other revolution. Based on other manuals, the signal that the ECM uses for fuel/ignition timing is the crank sensor. But what happens if it's 10 pulses on the crank sensor for every one on the cam, and a failure on one or the other is mucking up that ratio? At this point, replace the cheaper one and hope it fixes it.
Chuckster is offline  
post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 02:50 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
I'm pretty sure that the CMP sensor is only used at starting and disregarded once the engine is running. Once it knows cylinder #1 is on TDC compression stroke, it can keep track with just the CKP sensor after that.

This is borne out by the Fail Safe chart in the service manual.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Clipboard01.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	209.9 KB
ID:	288223

I first became aware of this when working on my Aprilia SXV. It is a V-twin with only a CKP sensor. The ECM throws spark at both cylinders for about 20 seconds and then figures out which cylinder to fire by the pulse intervals. A not uncommon mistake on those engines would be to install the cams 180 degrees off. It would start just fine and run for 20 seconds

I just don't see how a faulty CKP could produce these codes on those two cylinders so consistently. Even the manual's possible "things to check" does not mention the CKP as a possible culprit.
"Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery"

I know it has been checked, but my guess would be the that there is a poor connection on the O/W power wires to those two cylinders. At a certain rpm, it might just vibrate the poor connection enough to trigger the fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #31 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 24
Well, I certainly hope this is educational in some way to somebody somewhere. I know I'm nearing the end of my patience, and that's from a guy who rode everywhere on a BSA twin for years, and owned a Velocette Thruxton for a while, too. Cheater that I am, I adapted a Mikuni (in the very early '70s) to it so that it had some semblance of an idle, but that's a story for another day.
I dug in there and did continuity checks on all eight spark wires, the hot side to the sockets on the ECM connectors and the grounds to the gang-ground there. Everything was fine. I did not check actual resistance. Possibly an error.
I got momentarily excited to discover a broken wire just in front of the ECM's black connector, and thought it was the camshaft position sensor wire. Yeah, no, not if you look at the ECM pin numbers in the correct direction. It's the EXCVA wire apparently, and it seems it had been cut to avoid the C46 error- which I immediately got when I put in a jumper splice (soldered and shrink-wrapped!) and turned the key.
I guess I'll take one more good look at the coil connections, even though I believe I'd done so already, and then I guess pop for coils. Again, the only forum thread I could find where a guy claimed success with the 1-4 or 2-3 code was when he put in new coils.
I do appreciate the tutoring. I am learning about GSXRs, even though I may not own one much longer at this rate.
rv6john likes this.
Cherryriver is offline  
post #32 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 04:42 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6john View Post
I'm pretty sure that the CMP sensor is only used at starting and disregarded once the engine is running. Once it knows cylinder #1 is on TDC compression stroke, it can keep track with just the CKP sensor after that.

This is borne out by the Fail Safe chart in the service manual.

Attachment 288223

I first became aware of this when working on my Aprilia SXV. It is a V-twin with only a CKP sensor. The ECM throws spark at both cylinders for about 20 seconds and then figures out which cylinder to fire by the pulse intervals. A not uncommon mistake on those engines would be to install the cams 180 degrees off. It would start just fine and run for 20 seconds

I just don't see how a faulty CKP could produce these codes on those two cylinders so consistently. Even the manual's possible "things to check" does not mention the CKP as a possible culprit.
"Ignition coil, wiring/coupler connection, power supply from the battery"

I know it has been checked, but my guess would be the that there is a poor connection on the O/W power wires to those two cylinders. At a certain rpm, it might just vibrate the poor connection enough to trigger the fault.
I'm right there with you. The crank sensor picks up off the cam chain drive sprocket. If you look at a picture, it's got a "tall" spot in it that the ECM can use to stay honest. The cam sensor just tells it which cycle it's on. Once it knows that, it's binary and it really doesn't need the cam sensor at all. Crank sensor isn't cheap and it's a bit of work to change out. Have to drain the oil, get a gasket for the timing inspection cover and starter clutch cap. Remove the starter clutch cap, clutch, and idler, and then the cover. It's about a $200 job just in parts.

But, if this were my bike, I'd be ordering the parts.

Just thinking about it a bit more. The pairs are out of phase. Call #1 and #4 at the top of the rotation, and #2 and #3 at the bottom. It just fires one of the pair every other rotation. So if the sensor was picking up a problem in the first half of the rotation, it might error on #2 and #3. If it was picking up a problem in the second half, it would be #1 and #4. Maybe not explaining that right, but it sort of makes sense to me.

Last edited by Chuckster; 09-14-2019 at 04:53 AM.
Chuckster is offline  
post #33 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 12:06 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
@Chuckster. I understand what you are saying about the pairing of cylinders as #1 and #4 are in the same position whereas #2 and #3 are both 180 degrees out.

When I helped out a guy with a K7 600 that would not start about a month ago, I remember thinking the CKP was not in the position I expected it to be when we pulled the cover off.

As you can see from the picture below, the "wide" tooth on the cam chain side of the engine is clearly lined up with the #1 and #4 crank pins.
Click image for larger version

Name:	1 GSXR K6 600 crankshaft large notch to cyl 1 and 4.jpg
Views:	5
Size:	50.2 KB
ID:	288225

On installation of the cam chain sprocket/trigger wheel, the "wide" tooth is aligned with the wide trigger portion of the trigger wheel. Otherwise, when cylinder #1 is TDC, the wide trigger is pointing towards TDC. ("up")
Click image for larger version

Name:	2 GSXR K6 600 Cam chain sprocket installation wide tooth.jpg
Views:	5
Size:	54.9 KB
ID:	288227

From this picture we can tell that #1/#4 is about 45 degrees BTDC.
Click image for larger version

Name:	3 GSXR K6 600 trigger wheel installed..jpg
Views:	5
Size:	61.3 KB
ID:	288229

The kicker is that the CKP is mounted below the trigger wheel so it would be giving it's long "high" pulse at BTC of cylinders #1 and #4 or TDC of #2 and #3. (I flipped the following cover picture to orient it with the engine picture)
Click image for larger version

Name:	4 GSXR K6 600 CKP location in cover.jpg
Views:	5
Size:	51.7 KB
ID:	288231

Of course this does not help the OP directly, but it is interesting just when the CKP receives the long signal on each crankshaft rotation. It seems that #2 and #3 get direct pulses for timing and timing for #1 and #4 is interpreted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #34 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 06:25 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
If I'm understanding those pics correctly, and the wide spline lines up with #1 TDC then the wide part wouldn't be over the sensor when any of the four were at TDC.

All of it could be interpreted too. The frequency could be used to calculate a delay and the processor clock in the ECM is doing the work. This starts a new hypothesis. The wide part is not as tall as the other points. This suggests the CKP is a variable proximity switch and brings new meaning to the peak voltage check. That half height could be telling the ECM that it's still getting signal from the sensor, but it's neither a high nor a low. So let's assume a failing sensor is dropping voltage. What would the ECM think is happening? Would it basically be seeing two half height segments? If the first part of the theory is correct, the clock would be resetting and skipping an ignition cycle. The other thread in ECM would see the missed cycle for the pair. But the ECM would still be getting signal from the CKP and not throw a code for it. I just think that would be too erratic to stay consistent on a specific pair.

It's just fun to try and understand what's going on with the logic.
Chuckster is offline  
post #35 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 07:26 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If I'm understanding those pics correctly, and the wide spline lines up with #1 TDC then the wide part wouldn't be over the sensor when any of the four were at TDC.

All of it could be interpreted too. The frequency could be used to calculate a delay and the processor clock in the ECM is doing the work. This starts a new hypothesis. The wide part is not as tall as the other points. This suggests the CKP is a variable proximity switch and brings new meaning to the peak voltage check. That half height could be telling the ECM that it's still getting signal from the sensor, but it's neither a high nor a low. So let's assume a failing sensor is dropping voltage. What would the ECM think is happening? Would it basically be seeing two half height segments? If the first part of the theory is correct, the clock would be resetting and skipping an ignition cycle. The other thread in ECM would see the missed cycle for the pair. But the ECM would still be getting signal from the CKP and not throw a code for it. I just think that would be too erratic to stay consistent on a specific pair.

It's just fun to try and understand what's going on with the logic.
The crank pins for cylinders #2 and #3 are 180 off so the wide part of the trigger would be over the sensor when they were TDC. You are right that it is really not important where the sensor is. After one rotation, the ECM knows where the crank is and can interpret everything else from there.

Good question as to whether the slightly lower profile of the wide part of the trigger wheel is significant.
From what I've read about car systems, the CKP actually sees a voltage peak from each tooth with the wide tooth being the reference point. This is how cars can determine a misfire on a particular cylinder as it sees the crankshaft speed drop during that misfire. Pretty clever but I don't think the gsxr ECMs monitor this.

As a guess, I'm down to the CKP as you suggest or possibly the ECM itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #36 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 08:16 AM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
Draw that out. You say crank pins, but what are you talking about specifically?
Chuckster is offline  
post #37 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 09:17 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
Maybe terminology? Connecting rod big end journal?

Click image for larger version

Name:	Crankshaft pic with labels.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	65.6 KB
ID:	288235

Click image for larger version

Name:	Crankshaft pic 2.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	52.7 KB
ID:	288237

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #38 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 01:08 PM
Novice
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 37
I think that the CKP sensor is a variable reluctance type, basically a magnet with a wire coil around it.

"Good question as to whether the slightly lower profile of the wide part of the trigger wheel is significant."
Don't know for sure but thought that the low/wide part is a midpoint between the top and bottom of the tooth profile.

The OP mentioned earlier that he'd checked the sensor, though not with a peak voltage sensor. I'm grasping but am wondering if he didn't look closely enough and that there might still be stuff on either the sensor or the sprocket. Given the problems that he's having, I'd think it appropriate to check things while rotating the crankshaft a full revolution.

P.S. Here's a pic showing the relative orientation of the wide CKP sensor "tooth" and the indexing tooth for the crankshaft:


and here's the whole works:

Last edited by billv; 09-15-2019 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Added P.S.
billv is offline  
post #39 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 02:26 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
rv6john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the twisties around Hendersonville, NC
Posts: 7,943
@billv Those are better pics of the relationship between the wide tooth on the crank and wide trigger section on the wheel. It's interesting that the wide area leads TDC by about 45 degrees.

I believe the sensor is as you described. When I took the cover off on the non-running bike, one of the mounting screws was loose and "stuck" to the sensor.

As I mentioned before, even with the screw stuck to the sensor, the peak voltage check was in spec

The bike did not produce spark and there were no fault codes.

We didn't find the problem till we removed the cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
If you think reading is tricky, how the hell are you going to follow troubleshooting directions?
"Riding well is difficult, riding poorly is easy and painful."
- Nick Ienatsch


"We're all here because we're not all there" - Guy Favron on Gold Rush

K6 750
rv6john is offline  
post #40 of 48 (permalink) Old 09-15-2019, 03:36 PM
Pro Racer
 
Chuckster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,475
It looks like TDC on #1 is either the first or second tall point.
Chuckster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the GSXR.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome