L1 GSXR 600 hits a wall at 4500 RPMs one ride, rides like a top the next - GSXR.com
 
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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L1 GSXR 600 hits a wall at 4500 RPMs one ride, rides like a top the next

Today I was out for some rides. Temp was 50+. First ride once I hit 3rd gear and up, I noticed the bike hit an acceleration wall between 4500 and 5,000 rpms where slowly rolling on the throttle produced laggy acceleration. Even when the bike got to at least 170 degrees and higher rpms, the performance was loagy. I road about 8 miles.
Bike sat for about 15 min., and the next ride of 8+ miles it ran like a top. What could cause this? My gas mileage is still down around 32 mpg because of no interstate riding this tank full. Usually my mileage with this riding was 38, and 45 if I had a bunch of hgwy. Miles.
Still no FI light, plugs and air filter are fine. When I cleaned the injectors they were fine. Coils tested perfect in the resistance tests. I get same performance if I unplug the O2 sensor. EXCA motor is unplugged, and SET valve is wide open. Thanks for the help!
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:14 PM
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Maybe TPS or secondary throttle plates check throttle cable make sure it’s in good condition
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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One thing I corrected a few weeks ago was the TPS, the hash line was at the bottom. At that time I believe the bike was also running lean. Maybe not from the TPS, but I was still getting a slight pop when shifting at higher rpms. (Jardine GP1 straight pipe out of CAT). I believe the bike constantly runs rich now because of the slight rich/gas smell in the exhaust, poorer gas mileage, and when I rev it up it just sounds like an engine running rich to me.
No real smoke in exhaust, and pipe is definitely not excessively black.
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:10 AM
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Having replaced 7 STVAs on 2x of my GSXRs 2002 and a 2011. I would say your in the right area. TPS adjustment was a good find because it tells the STVA what position it needs to have the top butterflys in. The STVA in general could be going bad which on all of the ones that failed on me they ended up staying completely closed and limiting the bike to about 86mph regardless of gear or how much throttle I gave it. My 2002 never gave me a code for it but my 2011 so just look for the FI (Fuel Injection) code (C28) on your speedo.

As for the running rich problem, if your not getting enough air, lets say due to closed throttle bodies then it can run rich which I have seen. A pop doesn't tell anything about a sport bike or any engine for that matter unless its a lot of pops during specific acts like letting off full throttle,a bike running lean,a pair valve mod, or the removal of a catalytic converter. If you are getting 32mpg I wouldn't say your gas mileage is bad considering my 2011 gsxr 1000 with all of the mods and custom map would yield me 108 miles for 4.5 gallons give or take. Also, I have never heard anyone diagnose a rich bike by the sound so if you could clarify that please do. If there is no smoke/black exhaust especially when you give it full throttle then you don't have any issues. Don't let your butt dyno trick your mind. This is a sport bike and not a GZ250.

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Old 10-30-2019, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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EVL 750. Thanks for the input. I guess the "sound" issue I mention could just be the GP1 pipe, but compared to when I got the used bike last summer, it just doesn't seem to rev as peppy as it did. To me, it sounds more restricted most of the time. The wall I occasionally hit with the acceleration is real. One day I accelerated up hill from a light, and first gear was ok, but at around 5,000 rpms second gear was a dog and actually bogged down some. When the bike has performed like this and I have tried "B" mode to see what that is like, the engine is really bogged down or supressed, way more than it is supposed to be. I have no codes. Is there a way to see if the butterflies are opening properly? I know to see them the air cover would have to be off.
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Old 10-30-2019, 08:57 PM
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I just wished there was a way to make stva is fully open at top end of rpm or be able to adjust them like tps
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:11 AM
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Just take the top of the airbox off and watch them from cycling the key to giving it full rpms. They should cycle to about 10% open for a cold start then as you give it throttle they will move back and forth depending on your throttle. If it is a Keihin STVA there is no way to fix it as it is a stepped motor if that is your actual problem but you wont know until it dies. My 2011 gsxr 1000 would run perfect 1 moment going all the way to redline then the next it wouldn't go past 85 in all gears. eventually the motor just died and said C28. I bought a used set off ebay then sold the bike a year later.

Aside from watching the butterflys and taking the airbox top off you can unplug the motor (STVA) which is usually a white 3 pin connector and manually moving the butterflys with your fingers inconjuntion with your throttle to see if you can achieve redline or simulate your problem.

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Old 10-31-2019, 07:13 AM
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You can disconnect the stva motor and safety wire the top butterflys open (some people even remove them), then adjust your idle down.

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Old 10-31-2019, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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I just took the top off my air box and took a little over a 3-minute video of starting the bike from cold (bike not started for 2 days, temp in 50's) and letting it warm up to 127 degrees. You can hear what it sounds like when I start the engine and shut it down. When I turn on the key, the top butterflies open fully then close. I start the bike and all the way up to 127 degrees the top butterfly stay shut unless I rev the bike up. Any advise?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPEbCCGk1pYzCJUz8

Last edited by New2Street; 10-31-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:54 AM
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Your photo didn't work. When you rev the bike do the butterflys open or do they stay closed? Usually when its idling the butterflys will go from closed to open which is about 10%.

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Old 11-01-2019, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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That's weird. When I click on the link it opens right up on my phone.
To answer your question, when the engine starts, the butterflies stay closed. They are not open 10%. As I increase the throttle they open smoothly. When I rev the bike to 6,000 the butterflies open almost all the way, then close again as rpms decrease.

Last edited by New2Street; 11-01-2019 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Added info
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Since my secondary butterflies stay closed at idle, is this something I should adjust do they are at 10% open? Would that improve my off line power? When I rev the bike up at idle the first rev goes up around 4,000 (I don't go too high and beat my bike), but the second blip gets it to like 6,000 and sounds much better. I'm guessing that second blip is starting while the butterflies are still slightly open.
Remember I have no codes and the TPS is showing in the middle.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:05 AM Thread Starter
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I read a thread Chuckster responded to several years ago where he said the secondaries should fully open during warm up, then operate with the throttle. Mine fully open then cycle closed. Does that mean the secondary sensor is bad? I can't afford an expensive replacement if that's the case, so what would the next best thing to do or try?
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:17 PM
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No, the newer bikes behave differently because of the IAC valve. They don't need the fast idle control function that the STVA provided in the past. If you're sure your SET is wide open, and you have no FI code, then I'd say it's a fuel pump issue. You need to do a volume delivery test, and if that passes, do a pressure test.
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Old 11-05-2019, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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My set valve is unplugged and the wire removed from ecu, so no vodes. Cable disconnected from valve which I wired wide open in case the spring failed. I did a pressure test a few weeks ago and got a steady 46psi. Last fuel flow test was about 9 oz. In 10 seconds. I can do both those again tomorrow to be sure.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:55 AM
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Personally I wouldn't suspect a fuel pressure loss for 1 specific rpm stall. Since your TPS shows in the middle I would still suspect the STVA to be in the beginning stages of failing. Your top butterflys should cycle open then rotate mostly closed so there is no air gap between the disk and TB wall. I have seen motors completely fail which will go completely horizontal at idle and never move, but like mine and most others the stepper motor will fail in a different way where they cycle like normal but will not open intermittently at certain rpms.

Your options for replacement are to buy new Suzuki Parts House.com which is 10% over cost as if you were an employee or eBay which is always a risk. I have bought 6 or 7 (180-200 each with TBs) from eBay for 2 different bikes and I think all have been good for at least a year or two. I constantly modulate my throttle on the racetrack of aggressive street riding which wears them out quicker. I took one to the Boeing engineer here at work who specializes in electric motors and he said its a cheap/flawed design from Keihin, where the graphite disk wear out quickly.

The SET valve if disconnected will default 100% open based on the retaining spring and will not cause your problem. A SET problem will not open full due to out of spec cable adjustment so your power will be lacking at all times.

If not your STVA then your ECM would be in question but before all use the service manual again and confirm your throttle play is correct then make sure your TPS is in the middle again. TPS's can also wear out. You can see this if you take the TPS off and see the pyramids inside warn down.

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Old 11-06-2019, 07:14 AM
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If there's no code, it's not the STVA. Period, end of story.

Since your pipe is just a cat back, I wouldn't think it would affect the tune that much. Suzuki claims the EXVA is there for midrange so the fact it's not closing is interesting with this behavior. What's troubling is that your problem is inconsistent. That suggests an electrical issue that is exploited by the vibration harmonic at that RPM. Sounds like it's time to put it on a dyno to try and capture what's going on.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:49 AM
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The no code thing is not true. Again; I have replaced 6 of them on 1 bike (2002 750) all of which have produced no codes. The stepper motor is technically still working but at certain points it screws up so what we gather is its not long enough or enough of a voltage disagree for the ecm to send the code (since its technically not failing).

My 2011 GSXR 1000 began to fail similar to new2street where it wouldn't allow the bike to go above a certain rpm one moment but then I would cycle the key and it would be fine. It finally failed riding to work one morning when I gave it full throttle on a straight. The bike would only go up to 89 mph but at least it gave me the C28 code (the motor had completely failed at that point).

Dyno is a good idea so you can replicate the problem while watching all of the servos.

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Old 11-06-2019, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input.
PLEASE NOTE: the lack of acceleration around the 4500 RPMs range has only happened a few times.
Mosy the bike just accelerates not at top performance. It does seem to be fine once the engine has been run for a while and is fully warmed up. And after I have done a few quick take-offs. When the engine runs like a true high performance engine it is great, I just can't figure out why that is not all the time. It was when I bought it last summer!
Sorry if I use some incorrect terminology, but since I was not getting a code for faulty exhaust valve (just in front of the cat) or it's motor, should I try hooking it back up? The one thing I did find when I was experimenting with that valve, was that the spring was not hooked on the tabs correctly. It was disconnected. I guess I have no way of knowing if the valve is actually opening fully at highway speeds, but it does appear to cycle through its pre start test properly.
Temps are in the upper 40's here in PA today but the sun is out. I'm willing to hook the valve back up and go for a ride if it's truly better to have the valve closing at lower rpms. Thanks.

Last edited by New2Street; 11-06-2019 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:16 AM
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If your SET cables are removed then the valve (exhaust) defaults to fully open via the retention spring. Do not plug it back up, just make sure the valve is stuck open either by looking in your exhaust or physically moving the mount open then letting go to see it snap open. Without the cables attached the motor cannot utilize the buttery valve in the exhaust so there is no physical way it can restrict your air flow.

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Last edited by EVL 750; 11-06-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:21 AM
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Things that will limit your bike to certain rpms assuming the engine sounds normal to redline:

ECM - could be faulty
STVA - failing motor
TPS - out of adjustment which in turn tells the STVA to open/close at incorrect intervals
SET - cables not adjusted correctly or motor is failing, but if disconnected this is no factor unless its not remaining fully open.

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
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PLEASE NOTE: the lack of acceleration around the 4500 RPMs range has only happened a few times.
Based on that, I wouldn't rule out something as simple as bad fuel.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Before I saw your posts I went ahead and hooked the valve back up plugged it in reattached the wire to the ECM so that I would get a fault code if that existed. (No codes, and line in center of C00 entire time) When I turned on the key I noticed that the exhaust valve actuator did not turn the valve to fully open and then the closed position or position it supposed to be in after its test. The valve is stuck open about 1/3 position from my guess. I just went for a ride also fueled up with more 90 octane ethanol free fuel. The entire time I rode the bike was easily able to accelerate up above 12000 RPMs with no problem. Also for the first time in a while I was able to cruise at 60 miles an hour or more in third gear I'm thinking that was around 8,000 RPMs but can't remember, and the bike didn't make me feel like I wanted to shift up like it did before. Bike sounds a little more throaty than before but not sure what to do since it ran like a top. Temp outside is 42 degrees.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Went out for two more rides, temp had dropped some, and the bike did not run as strong as it had earlier. Running 3rd gear at 40 or so the engine sounded like it wanted me to shift so I wasn't running it so hard. Does that make sense? Earlier I could have run first gear at 30 or 40 and it would have been happy at those speeds and RPMs. I don't think it's an electrical/ grounding issue because it happens the whole time I'm riding. Kind of like putting the bike in "B" mode, but even more restricted power wise, instead of just a smoother throttle response.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:51 AM
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The SET valve is mearly for noise control of these bikes. Many dyno videos have proven this but the best is Brocks performance using a 17 gsxr 1000. When I had my 07 GSXR 750 the first thing I did was took the cables and motor off the exhaust, then removed the pin from the ECU (maybe 36 but I cant remember) then put a full Arrow system on it. I raced it for 2 years with no issues to power so I would suggest doing the same to eliminate any issues.

The SET valve is similar to your top butterflys. It will open and close depending on your throttle (1/3rd open is common for idle) to create a dampening effect on the exhaust gas which decreases noise. There is a cable adjustment per the service manual because like throttle/clutch cables they stretch over time and even if you give it 100% throttle due to the stretching it may only open 75% or less. Same goes for the motor which can stop working or begin to fail causing the butterfly to not open completely.

I never focused on "the bike felt like it wanted me to shift" feeling. What you need to focus on is does it pull through the gears and at all rpms smoothly and evenly. If you are getting hesitation/shuddering/stalling or rpms limitations then focus on those. Your butt dyno is your worst enemy.

Temperature dropping should make your bike run better. You can pack more cold/dense air into a cylinder with more fuel therefore creating more power. Did your bike run "worse" the entire time, on startup, or once warmed up going down the road?

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Old 11-07-2019, 10:41 AM
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^^^ this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Case in point, there are no secondaries on the 2017. It's throttle by wire and the computer controls the entire system so a single set of throttle valves can do it all.

The STVA is not there for noise control.... Did Suzuki augment the behavior to do so, yes. Is that the entire reason they SDTV system was developed? Absolutely not.

Your problem has nothing to do with the STVA.

And I just relized we're talking about a 600 at 4500 RPM. You really should keep that engine at 5k or above. Anything less is lugging it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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I would say it ran worse from the time I started it. No changes were made from the earlier run that ran great. The bike started and went to a higher 1900 rpm idle before settling down to the usual @1400 rpm idle. On that earlier ride the bike acted totally unrestricted and ran smoothly at all RPMs. It was a nice feeling! The second two rides the engine seemed more restricted but never coughs or tries to stall. It acts more like the cat is clogged up, or some other air/fuel restriction, yet the next ride it may run near perfect.
I will put that set valve back to full open, unplug the motor and pull that wire again. Not long ago I tried unplugging the O2 sensor because I read if they go bad the air/fuel metering will be off and cause poor performance and gas mileage. It ran great for a few rides, but when the restricted symptoms came back I plugged it back in.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:44 PM
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If stva was so important they would use it in race exshaust it’s to muffle some sound if it was disconnected because of flash the best way to tell if it’s open no closed you can turn it and hear it muffle the sound stva is trash kinda like pair system trash it’s all for emission period
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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Get rid of that cat and get a midpipe you can still use stock muffler with Mjs
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:50 PM
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And yes we have secondary throttle plates
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
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^^^ this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Case in point, there are no secondaries on the 2017. It's throttle by wire and the computer controls the entire system so a single set of throttle valves can do it all.

The STVA is not there for noise control.... Did Suzuki augment the behavior to do so, yes. Is that the entire reason they SDTV system was developed? Absolutely not.

Your problem has nothing to do with the STVA.

And I just relized we're talking about a 600 at 4500 RPM. You really should keep that engine at 5k or above. Anything less is lugging it.

Wow, I guess my points are not valid no matter how many bikes, races, or research I have done.

Lets go backwards a little bit. We are talking about a L1 GSXR 600 = 2011 and forward.

STVA - I never said STVA was for noise control, I said SET (Exhaust valve/EXUP)
(skip to the middle of the video for the SET and cross over tube testing)

2017 GSXR 1000 - throttle blade is restricted at high rpms.

STVA and his problem - his problem could absolutely be the STVA motor failing! It is a STEPPER motor so if one of more sets of graphite contacts are worn then it will not turn to or past that contact thus keeping the butterflys shut at rpm. (Reported from a Boeing engineer I work with)

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Old 11-08-2019, 06:13 AM
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I would say it ran worse from the time I started it. No changes were made from the earlier run that ran great. The bike started and went to a higher 1900 rpm idle before settling down to the usual @1400 rpm idle. On that earlier ride the bike acted totally unrestricted and ran smoothly at all RPMs. It was a nice feeling! The second two rides the engine seemed more restricted but never coughs or tries to stall. It acts more like the cat is clogged up, or some other air/fuel restriction, yet the next ride it may run near perfect.
I will put that set valve back to full open, unplug the motor and pull that wire again. Not long ago I tried unplugging the O2 sensor because I read if they go bad the air/fuel metering will be off and cause poor performance and gas mileage. It ran great for a few rides, but when the restricted symptoms came back I plugged it back in.
Your idle could be higher by 100+/- due to butterfly positioning. Most idle rpms should be at 1200 but have seen 600s around 1300. Your doing yourself a favor by removing all of it. With the stock exhaust your biggest adversary is the catalytic converter which is 4 very thick sets of honey comb. Removing this will free up exhaust flow and remove a significant amount of weight. Id suggest either a full system as your cat is welded to the headers.

The 02 sensor is important and shouldn't be removed or you could get a code and bad fuel mileage/power.

Once you remove all of that what I want you to do is ride it some and see if you can simulate that 4500 rpm issue. It doesn't sound like it came back with the SET valve in but it didn't sound like you went on a lot of rides with it. If it does come back what I want you to do is unbolt the STVA but leave it plugged up and just zip tie it to something under your tank. Start the bike and manually control the top butterflys until the rpm increases. Right before the increase use 2 zip ties, one tieing them open from the front and one from the back to keep them from moving (forward or backwards) then go ride it. If you no longer get the 4500 stall then its the motor. Your bike will feel a little different but the goal is to get the stall not peak power.,

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Last edited by EVL 750; 11-08-2019 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:46 AM
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STVA and his problem - his problem could absolutely be the STVA motor failing! It is a STEPPER motor so if one of more sets of graphite contacts are worn then it will not turn to or past that contact thus keeping the butterflys shut at rpm. (Reported from a Boeing engineer I work with)
You realize I've run a business repairing STVAs for 14 years, right? I've seen thousands of STVAs. You're correct, it's a bi-polar digital stepper (for the newer systems anyway) and the old units which are identical to the EXVA use a bi-directional motor. Stepper motors have no contacts at all. The only contact is where it connects to the wiring harness.

I also understand the self-diagnostic logic of the ECM. The ECM can see the load of the motor, and then uses the STPS to validate movements. It also can see the load of the STPS itself. If the STVA wasn't moving like it was told, he'd get C28 or C29, or both.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:28 PM
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My bike below 4500 isn’t that great either but most 600 aren’t
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Old 11-09-2019, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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I appreciate everyone's inputs. I went ahead and disconnected the SET valve cables again. Valve is sprung open, but I am going to rotate it by hand the next time I start the bike to be sure. I disconnected the drive motor for the valve, and pulled the wire from the ECM. The wall I felt around 4500 was real. When I slowly roll on the throttle, there is very little acceleration for a while. When the engine isn't acting up, I have smooth acceleration from idle to redline. Anyone that has followed my posts should recall I said this all started toward the end of last summer. I got the bike with around 14000 miles, and before I hit 15000 I started to notice the bike sounded more muffled when I revved it up, I was having to give it a little more throttle from a stop, an gas mileage went down. Half the time the bike runs like a true high performance bike, and almost have the time it feels restricted. If someone thinks they can help more about what I have done and how the bike performs better in a phone call, ill give them my number. Thanks for all the input so far.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:01 PM
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Poor performance and mileage sounds like something restricting air flow but I don’t know why it wouldn’t be consistent.

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Old 11-09-2019, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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In the beginning I thought maybe the CAT was clogging up thus the more restricted sound power and loss of average gas mileage, but it can't unclog and get better every few rides. The bike has (as of over the winter last year) new plugs, properly gapped, new air filter, new fuel filter, gas flow is 46 psi with prime and while running. Fuel flow is about 9 oz in 10 sec. Battery is fine. Unfortunately on these bikes I can see the back end of the cat when I take my slip-on off, but you can't see the front because it's welded to the pipe.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:12 PM
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Find a used Mjs midpipe on eBay an cut the cat off with die grinder just cut it on the weld and see if that clears up problem you can still use stock muffler with it
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Pretty soon I'll be pulling the bike into my basement for the winter, keep it 60 to 70 degrees for the next few months. (Wash, oil/filter change and chain clean/ lube first) I may try that midpipe deal over the winter and get that cat off of there in case it is actually clogging up. I'm just not sure why I still get times where the bike runs like a top and other times it just acts like it's restricted somehow. I can't believe that the butterflies would actually stick the entire time I'm out riding and not just once in awhile during a ride. I don't do track days but my bike already has the GP1 open pipe exhaust on it - I'm just kind of worried if I put the mid pipe in along with the GP1 pipe I'll end up with no back pressure and have to get some kind of tuning device so I don't run too lean and burn the Pistons up.
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 37
You won’t run to lean and your back pressure will still be good
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