|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|09-28-2019 01:44 PM|
One more update and hopefully we're done here.
I installed a new chain to replace the somewhat rusty clip-master-link one that was on there and got out for a 30-mile toot, with some Tollway running at good speed. I was also able to get three new gallons of fuel in the tank, the first since its arrival here.
Pretty much, it's running very well. No funny lights and no codes.
There's still some hitchyness in the low RPM running, say under 4000, but it's not stalling out, just running a bit rough. Hopefully some new fuel and Seafoam will eventually get that cleared up.
Thank you again to the great help dished out here.
|09-26-2019 05:57 PM|
Spyder13, it was a few posts back, can't blame you for missing it.
The oil that night came out of the sump quite light in color; that from the (one-change-older) filter was just a bit darker but not distressing.
I also changed out the coolant after dumping some distilled water through for a little flush. There was a bit of junk still left, but it's doing pretty well so far.
So. While we had a long workday (the Missus 13 hours straight, me only 11), we summoned the energy for another 20-mile loop around our area. With her SV650 in the mirror, at least I don't have to worry about getting home.
Basically, it ran well. No leaks were discovered.
I don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing on the coolant temperature gauge on this bike, but mostly I saw 185-192F. Cruising at higher RPMs definitely led to the lower temps. Dogging it at 3000-4000 brought the higher.
We got caught at a construction stoppage and I did not see more than 202F. I let it idle after the last slow mile home and got up to about 210F or so.
I'm hoping these are satisfactory numbers. The variations were appropriate to load and speed. I did not notice the fan coming on at any point, although it might have without my noticing.
The engine is a little rough at lower speeds and smaller throttle openings still. There's a third of a tank of the fuel that was in it left, and while I did add Seafoam on day one, I hope that a fresh load will improve things.
I suppose for the purposes of forum protocol I ought to start another thread as the resurrection of this thing progresses. Hopefully, the tale may assist another new owner with similar issues.
Oh, and did I mention? I discovered the chain, which while appearing to be of good quality is a little bit crunchy from disuse and neglect, has a clip master link?
|09-26-2019 07:58 AM|
|Spyder13||Just noticing, you haven't mentioned what the oil looked like. Still looking nice and, well, oil? No milk shake?|
|09-25-2019 11:17 AM|
So last night at the end of the 20-mile ride, the red light was on solid and there was an oil icon.
I dumped the oil and filter and put in new. Despite that, the red light and oil icon remained solid while running.
When I got home from work this afternoon, though, I walked through the garage and could not resist hitting the starter button. The red light and icon extinguished in a second or so, perfectly normally.
I think I'm going to substitute another oil pressure sensor, since this isn't the first time I got the low pressure signal, even though the first time it was definitely due to clogging of the switch opening.
|09-25-2019 05:40 AM|
The red light comes on for three reasons.
1. FI fault and you will get FI flashing in the temp window.
2. Low oil pressure and you will get the "oil can" icon in the lcd display.
3. High coolant temperature and you will the the "thermometer" in the lcd display.
Which do you have?
|09-24-2019 11:37 PM|
On my 1000 there's a screw-in plug near the oil pressure switch that's actually one end of the oil gallery. A plug like this can be installed in place of the OEM plug and a pressure gauge connected to it. Koso BG301615 might work but I'm not sure about the internal thread. There's another one here that says it's for 600/750/1000.
Alternately, you could replace the oil pressure switch with an adapter to a line that runs to a pressure gauge. Should be fairly easy to do except that I'm not sure what the thread is. Would be nice if it was 1/8" NPT but you'd have to check.
P.S. In addition to the red LED, low oil pressure will be accompanied by an oil can icon on the LCD while high temperature will be accompanied by a flickering thermometer icon.
|09-24-2019 08:09 PM|
New filter and oil in. Red light still stuck on.
Pulled oil pressure sensor since when I first got the bike, it was clogged with coolant/oil amalgam. Cleaning it then cleared up the problem. Cleaning it today did not.
That's cruel: get the engine running and now an oil light.
The temptation is just to get a new oil pressure switch. I did the lead-grounding test in the manual and it checked out.
I don't have access to an oil-pressure checking gauge arrangement, not as far as I know. I see the test in the manual but probably could go nuts trying to cobble one together.
The engine is not making any distress sounds and in fact sounds good.
I did see that the coolant level in the radiator was low. Evidently I did not do a good job bleeding it out during the coolant flush-and-change the other day.
A nasty thought is pulling the oil pan and changing the oil pump. The OEM headers look pretty rusty at the head joint and getting them off could be an issue.
|09-24-2019 06:44 PM|
"red light on the dash...had no temp indication with the C00 showing...saw 252degF showing"
Not good. I recommend that people only ride in dealer mode if they're sure that there's no overheating problem. Here's what Suzuki says:
Running the engine with high engine coolant temperature can cause serious engine damage. If the engine coolant temperature indicates greater than 120°C (248°F) and indicator light comes on, stop the engine to let it cool.
Do not run the engine until the coolant temperature indicates 120°C (248°F) or below.
|09-24-2019 06:11 PM|
In fact, we've just returned from the first real excursion. A warm summer evening, I had the luxury of the Missus trailing on her SV so I knew I'd get home.
We did about 20 miles or so of faster suburban roads. I did get up to about the century mark a couple of times in third gear so it got a workout.
I'd left the jumper in the "dealer mode" plug and saw no codes. I got no bogging.
There's still a bit of cobweb-byness at lower rpms. The gas is kind of old, I think, and it had been sitting.
No leaks or new, unusual odors showed up.
However, just as we were rolling back in the garage, I did note the red light on the dash saying low oil pressure, I presume. I of course had no temp indication with the C00 showing on the screen.
As quickly as I could when I shut it down, I pulled the jumper and saw 252degF showing. That seems high.
The oil level was definitely high, as well.
Now, the oil filter in there hadn't been changed during the last, fifth oil change after replacing the freeze plug. The initial cascade of oil from pulling the sump plug was quite light in color and looked pretty good (It had been in there for at most an hour of running time).
When I pulled the filter, the oil out of there mixed in the pan and was distinctly darker.
New filter and oil going in. Too bad I will be tied up working a fair amount this week and won't get to spend much time on this project. I'm also planning to ride my FJR down to New Orleans Saturday, which will also stop the show for a while.
But yes, replacing the CMP sensor appears to have eliminated both the bogging and the codes.
|09-24-2019 05:55 PM|
|billv||Congratulations if the CMP sensor solved your problem. Someone on gixxer.com was having a similar problem and it was suggested that there might be corrosion on the ECM pins. The connectors are high quality/waterproof but the seal is defeated if a lead is removed, commonly one associated with the SET valve, and the hole isn't plugged. That allows moisture to condense on and corrode the pins, in some cases the pins have actually broken off. I've been advising people for years to plug the hole(s) and had forgotten about it as a source of problems. That's something to check if your problems resurface.|
|09-23-2019 04:35 PM|
Well, my interpretation of the error codes was that the outboard cylinders weren't firing and were somehow sending a non-signal. The possibility of injector failure was a thin chance, but the bike was misfiring at larger throttle openings. At some point, I was going to revert to caveman observation and logic. No bang, no spark or fuel.
Turns out I may not have to.
Another short test ride just now up to 12,000rpm yielded no bogs, no codes. Progress.
|09-23-2019 12:27 PM|
|Chuckster||I thought we were talking about ignition codes? Messing with the injector plugs wouldn't have any sway on that.|
|09-23-2019 12:26 PM|
Good news but that is a remedy I did not think would work.
I don't see why R&R the injector connections would make any difference with your symptoms.
|09-23-2019 10:16 AM|
The new OEM camshaft position sensor arrived a while ago, went right in. A short test ride revealed no bogging and no codes at all.
The test ride was exactly the same as previous ones, constrained to this length by waiting for a registration to get done.
One small point was that while the thing was apart, I pulled the injector connections for inspection and reconnected them. That contains a slight change that somehow that corrected a problem but since I believe I'd done that before, too, I don't think it was the solution.
I have hopes of getting a fully-legal plate on it this week.
|09-20-2019 06:28 PM|
Just for fun... a poor photo of the inner face of the clutch cover showing some remnants of the coolant/oil amalgam that this engine was afflicted with after the previous owner left it in Dad's shed for a few years with water in the cooling system. At this point, I'm about 5-6 oil changes in. The sump looks pretty good, though, as observed through the clutch opening.
(Edited to add
Uh-oh. During some idle time, I went through the largish box of extra stuff the previous owner passed along. Among other things, there was an old camshaft position sensor. Now, not leaping to conclusions, but that's some bad tea leaves there.
|09-20-2019 02:23 PM|
CKP sensor installed... no real change. Perhaps a slight improvement but still the same cutting out around 7-8000rpm. (Pretty vicious neck snap when it cuts back in!)
Still, the C24 and C27 codes come in once the bike is wound up that far and the cutting out happens.
Overall, the bike runs halfway decently when it runs on four.
I admit the possibility that the EBay CKP sensor has exactly the same fault. That would be bad.
Waiting for the new, OEM CMP to arrive Monday.
If that doesn't do it, the injectors are coming off.
If that doesn't do it, out of ideas.
|09-20-2019 12:34 PM|
I seem to remember some maximum gap but like you said, there is no mention of it in the manual.
Also, the one I worked on a few months ago just attached with two screws and there was no provision for adjustment.
|09-20-2019 12:05 PM|
I've received the EBayed crankshaft position sensor. I'm about to install it.
I seem to recall a proximity setting for the sensor, yet the actual service manual makes no mention of such an adjustment. Am I completely missing it?
|09-19-2019 04:03 PM|
|rv6john||If there is a connection between your lights changing brightness and the ECM fault it would not be the kill switch, side stand switch or relay. They have no effect on the headlight circuit. This is why I mentioned the ignition switch.|
|09-19-2019 01:10 PM|
billv, that's getting to be quite a bit of thinking.
Hoping to get the show on the road and actually ride the thing in real life to see what else might be amiss, but I'll see if those items can get a look. I agree it's a thing.
I did sort of give the kill switch a thought after poring over the wiring diagram the other day. I've had Hondas including three Wings, and while they were superbly-made machines they had a weakness in switches: one 18 ate a front brake light switch every few years and a couple others. A kill switch is relatively in the open if the bike was stored outside and does have grounds for being suspected. (Not necessarily a pun.)
|09-19-2019 12:53 PM|
|billv||To pursue that a bit further, the varying light brightness could be due to a varying electrical load elsewhere, or a failing ability to control voltage. At that point I'd also be thinking about the kickstand switch, the engine stop switch, and the R/R.|
|09-19-2019 10:45 AM|
"I wonder if at a certain vibration frequency the ignition switch contacts start interrupting power to the ECM causing it to glitch?"
Now, that's esoteric! If the sensor replacements fail, I will give that a go.
|09-19-2019 10:42 AM|
"I wouldn't trust an eBay sensor."
I'm inclined to agree. On this project, I chose to roll the dice at a fifth the cost. Coming from what I take to be an established boneyard, I have a little higher hopes than just a plain seller.
|09-19-2019 07:34 AM|
Originally Posted by Cherryriver View Post
I wonder if at a certain vibration frequency the ignition switch contacts start interrupting power to the ECM causing it to glitch?
The check would be to temporarily jump power past the switch and see if the problem resolves.
|09-19-2019 06:30 AM|
|Chuckster||I wouldn't trust an eBay sensor. There are a lot of POS out there who fix their problem with new parts and sell their bad parts.|
|09-18-2019 01:52 PM|
Trying to do things in a semblance of order, maybe I got behind.
So I picked a CM
KP sensor off Ebay, about forty bucks. I'll replace the one sensor first, try it, and then the other, to see if there's a clear indication.
A little more info. I've done my test riding up and down an unoccupied street. I tried simply running it in the garage on the lift. Key indication: if I try to hold say, 8000rpm steadily, it cuts in and out noticeably cleanly. Revs jump a thousand or two as the one pair seems to cut in and out. The cycle is a second or two, not long but not a blink, either.
Interestingly, the headlight seems to flicker very slightly brighter and dimmer in concert. New battery.
|09-17-2019 12:30 PM|
Thanks for putting up with our posts. Though we're diverging somewhat, I hope it's apparent that what's driving it all is your problem. We're focusing on the CKP sensor right now but no one knows for sure.
I see that the CKP sensor was changed for K6 600. But it looks like the previous sensor, just repositioned. They also switched the CMP sensor to a Hall effect type (three wires instead of two is the giveaway). I'm unaware of any issues with it and a search for things like "gsxr camshaft position sensor tsb" didn't find anything. Used CKP sensors are as cheap as $15 on ebay and used CMP sensors for less than $30 but suit yourself.
I've never understood why Suzuki switched from variable reluctance to Hall effect for one sensor and not both. At redline the CKP sensor is putting out somewhere around 5200 pulses/sec vs 110 for the CMP. That may have something to do with it. Alternately, at idle the CKP sensor generates around 600 pulses/sec vs 12.5 for the CMP. The signal produced by a variable reluctance sensor varies with speed so the Hall effect may have an advantage at low speeds.
|09-16-2019 06:58 PM|
Gentlemen: Allow me to once again express my appreciation for your deep dive into this topic. I'm still not sure it's educational to everyone but it's still interesting to me.
I thought I had my forum settings set to notify me of new postings, so I missed the last several posts until checking back in this evening. All fascinating stuff.
To report on my doings, against my better judgement I ordered out a set of aftermarket coils. After all, I am getting a coil failure code, even if the diagnosing process suggests it isn't the problem.
And it isn't. The new coils provided no change in behavior. Guess one set or the other will wind up on Ebay.
In the meantime I'd also done a redneck fuel pump test, not quite to the book procedure, but it pumped gas convincingly and so that seems good.
To the point of checking the crankshaft position sensor condition: initially, I just blew the scrap particles off with the air hose. Knowing I have another oil change or two coming, I wasn't too worried about where they went.
As time and this thread went on, I went back and used a cotton swab to clean it again, more carefully. Still no change, though.
I have been digging around the 'net and ran across two sort of subtle clues, including a YouTube video of a fellow with almost exactly the same issue as mine. He got nowhere according to his video, but a commenter did come in, sounding as though he was a Suzuki tech at some point, and casually tossed off that it's the camshaft position sensor failing by giving low voltage, and that it's been the subject of dealer tech updates for years. I'd like to get some further info on that. I don't have a good, longtime Suzuki dealer with a good service department immediately available around here so it will take some spare time and travel. It's not the sort of thing to be done on the phone, it's a face-to-face thing.
I do recall running across a vaguely similar thread somewhere where someone else found the CMP sensor at fault as well.
I decided to grasp at that straw and order out a new OEM CMP sensor, for $122 shipped and taxed.
I am close to pulling the clutch cover and having a look around inside. I wish I'd thought to order a new gasket, even though I've pulled other clutch covers and re-used the original gasket just fine. Indeed, the Missus' other Suzuki, and '04 SV650S, went through that when she insisted upon my installing a Rekluse auto-clutch the same as the one in her preceeding Ninja 650. (A whole other story.)
I expect the CMP sensor by around the end of the week and I will report back. During that time, I will be studying these ignition system nuances and increasing my knowledge of modern computer-controlled motorcycles.
|09-16-2019 01:34 PM|
^That's it. The dimple is supposed to align with a corresponding dimple on the crankshaft. It's for K1/K2 1000 and some 600/750's of that era. It would seem that unless the CMP sensor is periodically checked, a missed CKP pulse would leave the spark 45° out of time. That might be a rare occurrence. The newer design appeared in K3.
P.S. Here and here is some info about Suzuki's and variable reluctance sensors for someone who wants to dig in. But I'll pass. There seem to be two major issues, 1. the shape of the signal and 2. the signal amplitude is proportional to the RPM. So some serious signal processing is needed.
|09-16-2019 12:22 PM|
|Chuckster||But it does have a dimple. What year is that from and does the manual make reference to the dimple on install?|
|09-16-2019 11:39 AM|
^John's first pic in #33 seems to show the indexing tab lined up with the #4 pin. I don't have a better pic but some crappy ones seem to show the same thing.
I'm almost afraid to bring this up but here's the previous design crankshaft sprocket. Note the apparent absence of an indexing spline as well as no wide "tooth" for the CKP sensor. So it seems to mount on the crankshaft at any of 18 positions. I'm thinking that it must rely on the CMP sensor for timing but that's just guessing. Go figure.
|09-16-2019 05:50 AM|
|Chuckster||So which spline lines up with #1 TDC? Is it the indexing spline?|
|09-15-2019 08:17 PM|
Here's a picture of the backside of the crankshaft sprocket that's closer to straight on and has less perspective error. As best I can tell, the middle of the crankshaft indexing tooth and the middle of the wide CKP sensor "tooth" are right at 45° apart.
There's a lot going on with that sprocket. The crankshaft splines are 20° apart (17 + 1 missing), there are 17 equally spaced camshaft chain teeth, and the CKP teeth are 15° apart (22 + 2 missing).
|09-15-2019 03:36 PM|
|Chuckster||It looks like TDC on #1 is either the first or second tall point.|
|09-15-2019 02:26 PM|
@billv Those are better pics of the relationship between the wide tooth on the crank and wide trigger section on the wheel. It's interesting that the wide area leads TDC by about 45 degrees.
I believe the sensor is as you described. When I took the cover off on the non-running bike, one of the mounting screws was loose and "stuck" to the sensor.
As I mentioned before, even with the screw stuck to the sensor, the peak voltage check was in spec
The bike did not produce spark and there were no fault codes.
We didn't find the problem till we removed the cover.
|09-15-2019 01:08 PM|
I think that the CKP sensor is a variable reluctance type, basically a magnet with a wire coil around it.
"Good question as to whether the slightly lower profile of the wide part of the trigger wheel is significant."
Don't know for sure but thought that the low/wide part is a midpoint between the top and bottom of the tooth profile.
The OP mentioned earlier that he'd checked the sensor, though not with a peak voltage sensor. I'm grasping but am wondering if he didn't look closely enough and that there might still be stuff on either the sensor or the sprocket. Given the problems that he's having, I'd think it appropriate to check things while rotating the crankshaft a full revolution.
P.S. Here's a pic showing the relative orientation of the wide CKP sensor "tooth" and the indexing tooth for the crankshaft:
and here's the whole works:
|09-15-2019 09:17 AM|
Maybe terminology? Connecting rod big end journal?
|09-15-2019 08:16 AM|
|Chuckster||Draw that out. You say crank pins, but what are you talking about specifically?|
|09-15-2019 07:26 AM|
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
Good question as to whether the slightly lower profile of the wide part of the trigger wheel is significant.
From what I've read about car systems, the CKP actually sees a voltage peak from each tooth with the wide tooth being the reference point. This is how cars can determine a misfire on a particular cylinder as it sees the crankshaft speed drop during that misfire. Pretty clever but I don't think the gsxr ECMs monitor this.
As a guess, I'm down to the CKP as you suggest or possibly the ECM itself.
|09-15-2019 06:25 AM|
If I'm understanding those pics correctly, and the wide spline lines up with #1 TDC then the wide part wouldn't be over the sensor when any of the four were at TDC.
All of it could be interpreted too. The frequency could be used to calculate a delay and the processor clock in the ECM is doing the work. This starts a new hypothesis. The wide part is not as tall as the other points. This suggests the CKP is a variable proximity switch and brings new meaning to the peak voltage check. That half height could be telling the ECM that it's still getting signal from the sensor, but it's neither a high nor a low. So let's assume a failing sensor is dropping voltage. What would the ECM think is happening? Would it basically be seeing two half height segments? If the first part of the theory is correct, the clock would be resetting and skipping an ignition cycle. The other thread in ECM would see the missed cycle for the pair. But the ECM would still be getting signal from the CKP and not throw a code for it. I just think that would be too erratic to stay consistent on a specific pair.
It's just fun to try and understand what's going on with the logic.
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