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600 Started running poorly again

3K views 67 replies 6 participants last post by  EVL 750 
#1 · (Edited)
After making it through the summer with the bike running pretty much like a top, within the last few days performance started dwindling. Nothing new has been done to the bike to cause performance to change. No new fuel, no other modifications to the bike. Bike is running on Citgo 90 octane ethanol free fuel. I noticed much less power off the line and acceleration not up to par - not even when I get it above 10,000 RPMs.
Temperature out this morning is about 58°, I took my grill thermometer and mounted the probes on my exhaust pipes as evenly as I could across the pipes. I started the bike up and right soon after I started what turned out to be a 5 minute video showing the bike heating up the pipes heating up and hopefully the sound of the bike. I stopped the video once the engine reached 150°. I'm hoping someone can give me some information that will help on what to check. The top temperature on the gauge is the left side of the bike the bottom one is the right side. I'm not sure if it's the probes or not but the temperatures don't heat up exactly the same. I include a shot of the probes to show you exactly where I mounted them. one thing I do notice is there a there is a little bit of a hesitation if that's what you call it around 4,000 RPMs the idle isn't as smooth as it is at other RPMs.
if someone can tell me how to post a five minute video or tell me how to send it to them via email or Facebook messenger I'd be glad to send the video I think it will help.
The 2006 bike has just over 18,000 mi on it. With an indicated engine temperature of 150°, the left pipe was at 318. The next one over was at 243, the next one was 286 and the pipe on the right side was at 354.
Thanks.
 
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#27 ·
I honestly have only seen 1 bike in person that used rotella. It’s just not a thing at dealerships, the track, or revzilla. The guy that used it said he went for what ever was affordable for his MT09.
That said, didn’t Ducs use it from the factory or have its sticker on the clutch cover years ago?
 
#30 ·
I'll keep checking the items you folks have mentioned and report back. The bike is a 2011 model. As far as I know, the only aftermarket performance mod was the Jardine GP1 slip on pipe (no baffle) that was on it when I bought it used at a dealer. The bike has the stock air filter and CAT present.
 
#31 ·
Then, I would rule out the couple of small electronics suggested by chuckster and move on to compression etc. I doubt its electrical based on the difference in header pipe temps unless you have an injector that's failing.
 
#32 ·
I just read this whole thread. Seems like you only have this issue when the engine is still warming up. The engine doesn't warm up as fast as it used to. Change the thermostat. Sounds like it is opening too soon. This doesn't sound like it should effect the runability that drastically, but it is where your symptoms are...

(Disclaimer: It's early, and I may have misread something.)
 
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#33 ·
I just read this whole thread. Seems like you only have this issue when the engine is still warming up. The engine doesn't warm up as fast as it used to. Change the thermostat. Sounds like it is opening too soon. This doesn't sound like it should effect the runability that drastically, but it is where your symptoms are...

(Disclaimer: It's early, and I may have misread something.)
I was going to suggest the thermostat, but his comment about the different cylinder temps ruled it out in my mind.
 
#34 ·
I can order a thermostat. I just went for a decent length ride today and the temperature outside is about 70°. the engine temperature was running around 165 at highway speeds in town I did get it to go up to 200 because I had to stop at several lights. When I got home I left the bike running and used a non-contact infrared thermometer to check the header pipes again and got inconsistent readings each time I went across them it always seemed like the pipe on the right was running almost 100° cooler than the others but the thermometer did not measure the pipes a consistent temperature even though I was measuring it in the same location. As soon as I get the chance I'll check plugs also to see what they look like. I really hope if I end up getting a compression/leak down tester and find that it's rings that's something that I can do over the winter in my basement. I hate to think how much my local shop not a Suzuki dealer just local motorcycle repair shop would charge to do that.
 
#35 ·
Every good working GSXR I have ever seen runs around 180 constantly until traffic, then it goes to 200+ but does not exceed 220 due to the stock programming for the fan temp. I don't believe you have a thermostat problem.

If you are looking at the bike from the front then cylinder 1 is on your right (clutch side). Regardless I believe you have 1 of the following problems.

Listed easiest to fix - hardest.

Faulty spark plug/spark plug wire.
Faulty injector/Injector wire.
Valve needing adjustment. (Is cylinder 1 tapping louder than the other or at all, if so it could mean you have a tight/loose valve).
Piston ring wear leading to a loss of compression (no compression = no heat)
 
#36 ·
Don't read too much into pipes being different in temp. My bike was/is in near perfect condition and dyno tuned. I had some pretty big differences in pipe temps and did some trim tuning to get them all within 40 degrees of each other. When I started, I had some 100 degree differences. I'm sure you can see brand new bikes off the line with 100 degree differences. Could be throttle body balance, or injector trim. But even after I did my adjustments, other than the readings on the infrared, I couldn't tell any difference.
 
#37 ·
I know it's 11:30 Thursday evening but looking for some help while I have the bike apart. I did drain the oil down a little bit because it was definitely at the full line or above . The oil that came out is nice and clean other than used over the summer no sparkles in it the oil drain plug with magnet on it was perfectly fine there was no grit on that either. The air filter is fine - nice and clean it has one summer of use on it. Getting ready to check the plugs.
My coolant also looks fine it's topped off no oil in the coolant and there is definitely no coolant in the oil. I also don't blow any smoke out the tailpipe like I'm burning oil.
 
#40 · (Edited)
When I posted pics of my previous plugs in a different performance issue thread, I thought someone said it was not uncommon for the bottom threads to be wet. The insulators, center and grounding electrodes all look about the same. That would mean all four cylinders are leaking the same????
Is my next step going to Harbor Freight when I get a chance and buying a compression/leak down gauge kit?
Here are pics of the plug wells. Looks like They came through 1, 4, 3, 2. my 1 is on left and 4 on right. You can't see my numbers in all pics.
 
#43 ·
You did post the original pics and some said it looked normal.

To me it did/does not. Your electrodes all appear to be in good working order, and the ground straps appear to be good except the one on the right (am I seeing build up that is flaking or a crack in the strap?). The portion before the threads appear mostly dry black which is fuel not getting burned (plug not getting hot enough, too cold before riding or during, incorrect afr)(border line carbon fouling especially when the white insulator has color). The wet and shinny portion of the threads indicate fuel not getting burned either due to too much fuel or the plug/cylinder not getting hot enough for long enough. There could also be a minor oil problem but usually that kind of wet black is seen on the entire plug and not just the threads.

Are those the stock plugs? Iridium's burn very hot which is keeping your plugs from fouling but they are also somewhat masking a problem.

A perfect burn should be a faint brown at the control ring with a clean electrode and the hood strap should be uniform in color (white indicates a hot burn).

I would suggest a compression test and harbor freights testers can work but are very cheap (motion pro is best).
 
#44 ·
I think I already sent the instructions on how to do a compression test on page 1 or 2 so you may need to read back or go watch some videos. The key will be warming the motor, removing all 4 plugs, making sure all your butterflys are open (bungie your throttle open and the others), and only doing 5-7 cranks at a time (don't force false readings).
 
#45 ·
Chuckster, since I'm not used to tearing engines apart will the compression test tell me only that there is a compression leak and then I have to figure out if it's valves or rings?
what about the theory of the thermostat sticking and not allowing the bike to get up to full temperature as quickly as it should? Should I replace the thermostat?
Babbit's can get the thermostat and says there is no o-ring showing that I need to replace. but they said I may have to replace the gasket that only comes with a new cover does anyone know if I need to buy a new cover and gasket when I replace the thermostat?
 
#46 ·
EVL 750, yes, you did post the directions for a compression test. I also saved screenshots of them from the manual I have downloaded to my phone.
I believe if you saw pics I posted of my plugs they were in the Help L1 600 Running Poorly thread I had posted a while ago. Those were the plugs that were in the bike when I got it. Since then I replaced them with the current NGK Iridium CR9EIX plugs I got from my Suzuki Dtealer.
Still waiting to hear if these bikes are designed to run best above a certain temp. I never get on the gas until the bike hits 100 + degrees, and would never run it to 10,000+ under at least 125 degrees. If the thermostat is sticking, maybe it is opening too soon and not letting the engine to get to the 180 degree cruising temp I'm used to. I used to get 180 degrees on the highway, closer to 200 in town, and 220 with fan kicking on when I get stuck at traffic lights. It rarely gets that warm anymore.
I thought maybe Water Wetter was letting it run that much cooler.
Definitely an intermittent problem. I tried unplugging the O2 sensor again because in that other thread I posted that it ran like a champ for a few days when I disconnected it before, but then the problem returned so I plugged it back in. It didn't help performance this time, so tomorrow morning I'll plug it back in. Probably order a thermostat first thing Monday morning.
 
#48 ·
EVL 750, yes, you did post the directions for a compression test. I also saved screenshots of them from the manual I have downloaded to my phone.
I believe if you saw pics I posted of my plugs they were in the Help L1 600 Running Poorly thread I had posted a while ago. Those were the plugs that were in the bike when I got it. Since then I replaced them with the current NGK Iridium CR9EIX plugs I got from my Suzuki Dtealer.
Still waiting to hear if these bikes are designed to run best above a certain temp. I never get on the gas until the bike hits 100 + degrees, and would never run it to 10,000+ under at least 125 degrees. If the thermostat is sticking, maybe it is opening too soon and not letting the engine to get to the 180 degree cruising temp I'm used to. I used to get 180 degrees on the highway, closer to 200 in town, and 220 with fan kicking on when I get stuck at traffic lights. It rarely gets that warm anymore.
I thought maybe Water Wetter was letting it run that much cooler.
Definitely an intermittent problem. I tried unplugging the O2 sensor again because in that other thread I posted that it ran like a champ for a few days when I disconnected it before, but then the problem returned so I plugged it back in. It didn't help performance this time, so tomorrow morning I'll plug it back in. Probably order a thermostat first thing Monday morning.
You have put the stock plugs back in which is perfect. There is no need to replace the thermostat. Engines in general do not require a certain temperature to run correctly, your cylinder either gets enough fuel and air or it doesn't on its strokes, and it either has enough compression or it doesn't (simple as that). YOU SHOULD DO A COMPRESSION TEST FIRST which will tell you the health of your cylinders (rings being the most important). Doing a cold compression test will not get you correct readings so you Shouldn't waster your time (can be up to 20psi different then when warm).

The point behind getting to a specific operating temperature before driving or reving is to let the oil cycle through the engine and lubricate all of the parts, and to let the pistons/rings expand at the same time as the block. If you don't let expansion happen together then you can end up with a piston (small metal mass) heating more quickly than the block which can cause the piston to seize (This variable is also affected by the oil and ring-end-gap during expansion). Your running temps sound normal unlike your videos, but the bike sounded fine in the videos.

Water wetter is mostly a lubricant when you run distilled water (not a lubricant), so if you poured it in a radiator that's already a 50/50 mix then you have done nothing because there was already antifreeze in there.

The o2 sensor on a stock motorcycle/car is a narrow band sensor only capable of a small target air/fuel ratio 14.7 being perfect. Your plugs do not indicate a perfect burn (dry and brownish). By pulling the o2 sensor you have richened the mixed and while it may have felt better its false. When you being adding fuel to a cylinder its harder to burn and a less violent bang which makes it smoother (feels better), but then it fouls the plugs out and wont burn at all. Leave it plugged in unless you have a flashed ECU or are running a wide band sensor with mapping.

AGAIN......inconsistent exhaust temps usually indicate a difference in burn in your cylinders (not enough fuel via injectors, poor, spark, loss of compression). Your plugs look like they are doing their jobs as does your injectors which only leaves...………...wait for it...………….compression (valves if the engine was raced or heavy use which yours was not or ring wear).

Compression = power and with out it you cannot reach peek performance or go past 10k which I think was the original reason for the post??? I feel like I am going to have to go back and read from the beginning now because of where we are at.

YOU SHOULD DO>>>>>> Compression test, then leak down depending on the results.
 
#47 ·
It should run fine before it's fully warmed up, so the idea that a thermostat is causing the running issues is nonsense. You're correct that a compression and leak down test is just a binary "do I have a problem" test. If there's a problem, you have to do more testing to pinpoint it. That's where the leak down is more valuable. You can usually determine where the leak is. The frustrating part for you is that you do a compression test when the engine is warmed up. But doing a compression and leak down on a cold engine, then on a warm engine could be beneficial for you if it shows a big delta difference.

Did you ever do the tests I recommended in post #10?
 
#49 ·
I am working on the sensor tests this weekend.
What confuses me is if I have a valve clearance problem or a leaking ring problem why does the bike run like a top most of the time and only act bugged down once in awhile and then not even for the full ride? Wouldn't a compression type problem be present all the time? Or every ride through a certain temperature range?
 
#50 ·
Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't you say it only does it on a cold engine? The reason that would be important for a compression test is because the oil will drain down or a ring will get stuck in the lands. Heat and an oil supply can cure both. If you're saying it happens sometimes on a warm engine, I'd move away from mechanical and focus on the EFI.
 
#51 ·
Going back to the beginning, just so we can start fresh:

You rulled out fuel via fuel flow (idling, running, and ensured your fuel line wasn’t kinked).

Your filter was clean.

Your oil looked good with no sparkles.

Your injectors Appear to be working uniformly.

Your bike has low mileage and shouldn’t need a valve adjustment however Suzuki recommends one at 15,000.

Your radiator was flushed and runs cool.

The exhaust is straight through with no butterfly or cat.

Your plugs indicate fuel not being fully burned.

This leaves me at:

You need a valve adjustment, a compression test, a leak down, or the combo.

As your engine heats up your valves create a tighter seal robbing the engine of performance (they don’t open or close as much as they should)

Your rings may be worn (based on how you ride they shouldn’t be), but regardless you are exhibiting signs of worn rings. As chukster stated cold thick oil can make a false seal which releases one the oil is warm. Just becausethe bike runs fine at certain points doesnt mean you haven’t lost compression. You compression range is something like 175-220 with a minimum to start at like 165. Even if you are at 175 your bike will still start and run, even up to rpm but will lack performance and struggle.

I’m not going to post anymore until these are done unless something significant has been found. (I feel like I’m starting to waste my breath)
 
#52 ·
Thanks guys I can go to Auto zone tomorrow morning and get the loaner tool gauges for the compression/leak down test. They should be better quality than harbor freight I'll post what I find you guys are saying only let the engine crank about five times for each cylinder? Since I've never done this test before how long do you let the engine sit for the leak down?
And how do I know that the engine didn't stop with a valve in a normal partially-open position making it impossible for the cylinder to hold compression. just wondering. I have already saved screenshots of the service manual directions on how to do a compression test.
 
#54 ·
Chuckster, I know I'm driving you crazy and I'm sorry!! I learned two things today. The first was that the AutoZone gauge that I brought home to check the compression does not go small enough for these NGK plugs, and AutoZone doesn't have any adapters in the store that will work. They told me I'll probably have to go to motorcycle shop. So now I'll have to check my local motorcycle repair shop and see if they can help me out. I also learned that at a temperature of 50° outside it took the engine 4 minutes to hit 130 degrees F at idle, 5 and 1/2 minutes to get to 150°, and 8 minutes and 15 seconds to get to 180°. If those times sound too long then I'll pull the thermostat, check it per the service manual, and if it's not opening properly I'll order a new one because I know my coolant is clean.
Thanks for the help!!!
 
#56 ·
Somewhere in here/there, you did a fuel flow/time test too?

And your air cleaner is- clean?

And your gas is- relatively new?
 
#57 ·
Compression test results:
I got 160psi across all four cylinders listening for 6 compressions from the exhaust. If I heard 7+, the pressure was at least 180psi, so I'm not sure I cranked long enough?
I asked the sales guy at the auto parts store who used to be a mechanic and has done lots of performance mods to auto's. He said I will find a lower compression reading because of the stock muffler being removed and a reduction in back pressure which affects compression. How much on my engine he couldn't say.
I also discovered that the radiator warms up way too quickly, so I am assuming the thermostat is stuck at least part way open. He also told me if I mixed 50/50 with Zerex G05 and added some water wetter, the engine may be running cooler than it should. He suggested flushing the system and refilling without the water wetter additive. (Just 50/50 Zerex)
Thoughts from you folks on if I ran the test correctly?

Also battery is fully charged 12.47? Volts. Didn't check while cranking.
Fuel I'd new ethanol free 90 octane.
Have not run fuel flow test this summer. Last summer it was 46 psi and fuel flow was almost 1.5 times the minimum in 10 seconds.
 
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