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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Follow up Question re my poor oil pressure problem......
I made sure the sump had oil (it was half way up the sight glass), removed the oil filter and cranked the engine. Hopefully you can see the attached video......
As you will see oil appears after a few seconds but it seems to be at a very low pressure. Would you agree that this seems like a knackered pump?
Thanks
 

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Well I've never done that but it looks like there is plenty of pumping volume.

Did you ever mention why you believe you have low oil pressure?

And it's best to stay with one thread for each problem so a person can follow the progress.
 

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It isn't good for the engine to have the oil pumping into a pan instead of going back into the engine to the bearings, crank & cams and such. Please put the oil-filter back on and check for pressure with a good working gauge.
 
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+1 On measuring things that way. I think it cranks at about 300 RPM, which doesn't relate well to actual operation. For what it's worth, here are some measurements on my K6 1000 while sitting in the garage.

The oil temperature is measured by a small thermocouple that sits about 3" inside the main oil gallery (a Koso adapter replaced the plug at the end of the gallery). There's no fan on the oil cooler so I suspect that the oil temps are higher than on a moving bike. The second set are more erratic because I'm periodically trying to raise the RPM to 3000 while reading a pressure gauge. The pressure seems to be stabilizing at 7.5 psi at 1500 RPM and 18 psi at 3000 RPM.
 

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+1 On measuring things that way. I think it cranks at about 300 RPM, which doesn't relate well to actual operation. For what it's worth, here are some measurements on my K6 1000 while sitting in the garage.

The oil temperature is measured by a small thermocouple that sits about 3" inside the main oil gallery (a Koso adapter replaced the plug at the end of the gallery). There's no fan on the oil cooler so I suspect that the oil temps are higher than on a moving bike. The second set are more erratic because I'm periodically trying to raise the RPM to 3000 while reading a pressure gauge. The pressure seems to be stabilizing at 7.5 psi at 1500 RPM and 18 psi at 3000 RPM.
Jets garage has a ton of cool stuff in his garage but damn it Man, the stuff that comes out of yours is next level.

Great post Sir.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you for your replies.

Some background to respond to your questions:

The engine is in a single seater car I have. A couple of months ago whilst on track, the oil pick up pipe managed to work itself loose. I lost pressure and knackered some bearings etc in the process. The engine has therefore been rebuilt, and having installed it in the car again and primed the system as much as possible and got rid of any air locks in the radiator etc. I started it for about 5 seconds but got zero oil pressure.

I have plugged in a mechanical pressure gauge and that also reads zero. I have tested my oil pressure sensor and it seems to be ok.

I have therefore trying to find what is wrong before potentially removing the engine again and opening it all up. (I am however also conscious of cranking/starting it for too long given it is newly built (but it has been built with decent grease that should hopefully be protecting it)).

I have checked all my lines and the oil rad for blockages and cannot find anything wrong with them (in particular from where the filter attaches to the main gallery where the oil pressure gauge is connected) . From what I have read, a failed pump is quite rare given there is not a lot that can go wrong with them but everything I have looked at suggests it is. Whilst cranking is only possibly 300rpm, I would have thought I would still get 2 or 3 psi after say 10 secs with cold oil (with the spark plugs out). Billv would you agree (and thank you for the post/graphs which are very helpful)?

Whilst rv6John suggests there is plenty of oil being spilled out in the video it just doesn't seem (to me) to be with any kind of force that could then push it round the rad and engine, but I may of course be wrong.

I have a new oil pressure gauge on order so I will try that when that arrives, but if I still get a zero reading it is going to be engine out to see if I can find anything.

Thanks
 

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I don't know if these engines have a gear type pump like a car but an old trick I have used on an oil pump that won't pick up the oil is to pack the pump with vasoline.
 

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I'm pretty sure whatever the problem is, you will be pulling the oil pan at least to fix it.

Since the pump is obviously pumping, I would check the relief valve if it were my bike.

I'm not sure you would have seen the oil coming out with much force as that is a pretty big hole and the oil pump is really not that big.
 

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I gather that it's a 1000 but what year? Are you sure the pump is turning? Depending on the year there's either a gear or chain drive from the clutch. I think that you could remove the water pump and look inside to see if the drive from the oil pump is turning. If I recall correctly the pump is a gerotor type. You can see the rotor mechanism here:

AFAIK this is a mature design and rather robust.

Another possibility is a missing plug or jet on an oil gallery. Some are internal and would just dump the oil into the sump. You can see one in the upper left here:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks again for your responses.
It’s a K3 engine, so the pump is driven by a gear off the clutch basket. As Rv6John says, and before turning it over again, I think I’ll need to take the sump off to check the regulator and whilst I have it out of the car I may as well take a better look at the pump!
 

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I think that my second pic above shows the passages from the pump to the filter and your K3 should look like it. The orange O-ring is for the oil pickup and the empty hole to the right of the oil filter boss is for the regulator. A jammed or missing regulator is something to check for. There's an oil jet on the topside but I don't think that it would pass a bunch of oil if missing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I think have found the problem!
I have a few engines (all K3/K4) and when installing this engine I used a sump plate casting off the engine I pulled out of my car (it was just cleaner!).
Have opened up the engine again I have realised that the oil pick up pipe on one engine is 10mm longer than the other. The sump plate casting is also 10mm deeper than the other. Installing the shallower sump plate casting onto the engine with the longer oil pick pipe meant the oil pick up was hard up against the bottom of the casting and restricted the flow of oil. See photos.
At least I hope this is the issue, I’ll let you know once it’s back together!
295708
295709
 

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It looks like the shallower pan & shorter pickup is K3/K4 while the deeper pan & longer pickup is K5/K6. The relocated drain plug (to a better location) makes that possible. I was not aware of that and it's now clear that the pan & pickup are matched and mismatching them can lead to trouble.

I also see that the boss for the oil cooler is blanked off. Do you not have an oil cooler? Others here might know more but I seem to recall that simply blocking off the oil cooler is not a good idea as it forces the oil that would normally pass through the cooler to instead go through the orifice that you were inquiring about elsewhere. I think that you're supposed to either install a bypass line or drill out the orifice, possibly installing a removable drilled plug in its place. The turbo people ought to know as they oftentimes remove the cooler.

I thought that cars used dry sumps or special low profile wet sump pans.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks Billv
Interesting the longer pick up and pan is from a K5/6. The block is definitely a K3/4 but I’m not that surprised its had bits swapped round as the engine originally came to me second hand from another car.
The blanks on the oil cooler are just temporary plugs I made to stop the oil dripping out as I get it out of the car and move it around in the stand etc. They are normally connected to a oil cooler.
I don’t run a dry sump system on my car but you can of course. I do however have a extra plate that I instal between the pan and block to stop oil drifting away from the pick up point on high speed corners and always ensure the oil is ‘full’.
I do have a low profile sump kit somewhere that I bought a few years back but to get the benefit of using it you need to install the whole engine in a lower position to get the centre of gravity down. This however means work to the chassis for the mounting points and also means making a new or adapting the exhaust header set as they would otherwise sit too low. A project for another day!
 

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As best I can tell, the casting number for the upper crankcase is 40F for K1-K4, 41G for K5/K6, and 21H for K7/K8. The middle and lower crankcases are all 40F. This indicates to me that K1-K8 all use the same middle and lower crankcases. The sections are not sold separately, only as a mated assembly, because that's how they are machined. But it has implications with regard to what parts mate with them and explains why you were able to swap the pan and pickup.
 
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