Another winter lay-up question; remove coolant?

QRO · Dec 10, 2022

Hi.

It's been getting very cold here and some little demon has jumped into my head today suggesting that maybe I only have water in my engine.

I never checked because I was planning to swap the radiator out when I checked the valve clearances, but it's all gone a lot colder a lot quicker than it usually does here.

I put a couple of bottles of water in the garage, and a thermometer. I am working on the basis that the thermal inertia of a bottle of water is a lot less than a whole bike, so the bottles will freeze before the bike, even if only water in it. No freeze, then no panic.

My question is whether there is a 'quick' way to let the water out of the engine? It's not fun out in the garage temps at the moment, and the garage is full anyway now. If there is a quick bolt or hose I can unscrew without de-fairing it, and drain it, maybe that is not a bad idea.

Thoughts/advice, please?

thanks.

rv6john · Dec 10, 2022

Yes, if you have any doubt, dump it out. (Hmmm catch rhyme)

Just pull the hose at the bottom of the water pump. Easy to get to and empties the engine and radiator.

Yellow Submarine · Dec 10, 2022

If there’s just water in it, that’s a situation I’d recommend correcting as soon as possible.

Water alone is fine if you drain it regularly, deionized or distilled water anyway. Tap water on the other hand…I’d get rid of that as soon as I could.

Tap water contains minerals, notably calcium & lime. Ever see the white build up on your kettle? The same thing is happening inside the coolant passages of your engine.

Sometimes you’ll notice the coolant around the rad cap or overflow bottle cap looks a bit milky. That’s the minerals separating out.

Then there’s corrosion and steam erosion issues. Water with coolant in it doesn’t boil because the coolant raises the boiling point. Similarly it lowers the freeze point so in general, it won’t freeze down to -40 or so.

Plain water will boil. I’ve seen the steam produced by that boil cut through an aluminum cylinder head like a knife through butter. Further, I’ve seen a bike engine run on plain water rust out the steel fittings that pressed or threaded into the cylinder head and water pump from the inside.

Coolant of any persuasion contains anti corrosion properties to slow or stop corrosion. So my advice is, drain the coolant. If you have to pull the bike out of the garage to de-fairing and drain then do it as soon as you can.

Refill with distilled or deionized water and any silicate free coolant. (Silicates will destroy the water pump seals) Automotive coolant is fine, so long as it is silicate free. Some is obviously better than others. Some boasts aluminum protectant and may be worth the extra dosh.

Personally I use what ever meets those criteria. Whether made by Honda, Prestone or Chevron….or whomever. Quality is important, brand name less so.

QRO · Dec 10, 2022

This here then I guess you mean.

Looks like I have to take the fairing off, but maybe I can loosen the top hose without bothering and see what the coolant is like from there. I think it'll be OK but I did top up with plain water when I got it earlier in the year and who knows what the previous owner did, it was not in a good shape.

I'll be worried now overnight. It's almost 0 in the garage already.

QRO · Dec 10, 2022

I notice there is an air bleed screw, presumably to prime the pump. They could have trivially included a drain screw too, like for 'normal' bikes (!?), rather than break the hose seals to drain. I seem to suffer leaks after refitting hoses sometimes. I guess that might be down to the age of things I own, and the rubber perishes.

I think first I'll just drain out of the bleeder bolt, and if what comes out is fit for not freezing, I'll call it 'safe' until spring. There's not going to be much left in the engine at that level, I think?

rv6john · Dec 10, 2022

Just removing the air bleed bold will leave the water pump full and subject to freezing damage.

QRO · Dec 10, 2022

Yeah, I might as well just do the job properly and drop the fairings, flush and give it new coolant straight away, rather than leave it dry.

I think I'll go put a heater in the garage for tonight, maybe -5C. I'm sure there is stuff in the engine enough to deal with that, but, knowing my luck. And if I warm the garage up overnight then it'll be a bit warmer when I do this job tomorrow.

(Just thinking out loud here, so makes sense to me!)

I'll need to go buy coolant. Any opinion on that these days? I tend to prefer premix so I don't have to hunt around for distilled water. There is a Mannol 'MX' offroad premix, yellow colour affordable. Or just go for regular automotive G12?

I actually have a bottle of GM Dexcool premix. Dexcool? Is that OK in a bike? I mean, is there anything specific about 'motorcycle' coolant Mannol make?

I think choosing engine fluids is one of those 'easy to overthink it' things, but in the very next moment you discover something new that you never knew before that you shouldn't do!

JCW · Dec 10, 2022

I would remove the water. Pulling those two hoses will get enough out to not have to worry about damage from frozen water in the block or pump.
Not sure what all those colors of modern coolant/antifreeze mean...
as far as the bike's requirements i only see this...
Use an anti-freeze/coolant compatible with aluminum radiator, mixed with distilled water only, at the ratio of 50:50.

matt365 · Dec 11, 2022

JCW said:
I would remove the water. Pulling those two hoses will get enough out to not have to worry about damage from frozen water in the block or pump.. [/I][/B]

I did that once. Didn't work out well... some water was still in the block. Caused a hairline crack. Bike still ran, but it leaked coolant behind the headers. Took forever to find it.

Best to run it with proper 50/50 coolant. Get it circulating throughout the engine.

O.P. I'd just put in Prestone. As long as the bottle says its safe for aluminum, the cheap stuff is fine.

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Yellow Submarine · Dec 11, 2022

Dex cool is fine so long as you don’t let it sit too long. I run it in my Aprilia Mille R and have done since I got the bike. It is silicate free and is designed for alloy radiators (that’s what GM runs).

If your bike were to sit for a year or more, I’d remove the Dexcool as it will rot any plastic fittings to the point of failure if the engine is not run for prolonged periods. A month or 3 over winter is fine tho.

As I wrote I’ve run it in my Aprilia since nearly new. It is silicate free…and my Aprilia is still on its original water pump seal from new. It’s never had to be changed. Most others on the road cannot say the same. It was a known issue from the early V60 bikes.

QRO · Dec 11, 2022

Yellow Submarine said:
Dex cool is fine .... It is silicate free ....

Oh Gawd.

I've just opened up a new can'o'worms in my over-thinking now.

Are silicates good or bad? I just looked up research that appears to say it's OK so long as there is enough of it! The Effect of Silicate Content in Engine Coolants on the Corrosion Protection of Aluminum Heat-Rejecting Surfaces on JSTOR

I just noticed on the Mannol MX product, motorbike specific;
"- It is neutral to inserts and hoses, compatible with all types of rubber and plastic parts of the cooling system;
- It is a liquid with an elevated level of borates and silicates."

MANNOL Pro Cool

www.mannol.de

🤪

Chuckster · Dec 11, 2022

My track bike is only water. I'm always paranoid that the garage door is going to be left up (garage does get down as low as 40F during the winter). This year, I'm going to give myself some piece of mind and drain it. But I'm also going to fill with a good ant-freeze. Leaving it totally empty and letting it go dry just seems like a bad idea. Plus a good coolant will also have a tiny bit of lube in it to help keep the pump healthy.

tigerblade · Dec 20, 2022

Same. I drain the water/Water Wetter and fill with antifreeze during the winter.

Yellow Submarine · Dec 11, 2022

The following is from the A/C Delco website concerning the use of Dex-cool antifreeze:

ACDelco DEX-COOL® is an ethylene glycol based fluid that provides maintenance-free protection against freezing and boiling but also against corrosion. Extended coolant life, often for the whole life of the engine or vehicle, is obtained through the use of virtually non-depleting corrosion inhibitors.

According to them, you shouldn’t ever “need” to change it but my experiences say otherwise. As I pointed out previously Dex-Cool is slightly acidic (by design even) and leaving it static (engine not run) for extended periods will reduce the life of plastic hose fittings and pump seals.

I also have a 3/4 ton Chevrolet Suburban that uses Dex-Cool. As it has a 6.0L engine, is 4WD and has a full tow package on it; mileage isn’t great. Also, I have several motorcycles to commute on, and I live close enough that I’ll sometimes commute by bicycle. Point is, I might drive the thing 3-4 times a year and even then only if I absolutely need it.

Because it’s sat without running for much of the last 8 years I’ve had to replace the water pump twice, the radiator twice and the heater hose fittings twice. I’d bet the old ‘Burban hasn’t gotten more than 6-700 miles since 2014. Prior to then it was a daily driver and we never had a single issue with it. Once it sat….all kinds of cooling system problems. All of which can be directly traced to the stagnant coolant.

QRO · Dec 12, 2022

Well, I did the job, took the fairings off. Seems to get more and more difficult doing that!! With added mud and cold.

Anyhow, it's obviously a very easy job once the fairing is off, I cracked open the bottom hose and it started oozing a thick clear green coolant, so I really didn't want to disturb those hoses, they look fragile TBH, maybe get new ones. So just drained a bit into a bottle and popped it into the freezer at -20C, and it was fine.

So left it at that for now. Looks like it has been changed in the last few years, and I only topped up a few 100ml when I got it so was not significantly diluted by me.

The GSXR came to me with questionable history and dubious overall health so at least the coolant has been serviced. Meanwhile my other latest acquisition of a couple of weeks ago I had assumed would be fine as the bike has a traceable history and along term previous owner who appears to have been careful with it and even gave me a half a bottle of quality motorcycle coolant. Still when I asked him he was somewhat uncertain himself, which rang bells, so I did the same with that and the coolant gelled up at around -10C, so I have now drained that and will refill once I identify my preferred coolant.

Thanks for the tip about the hoses, and the encouragement to test this out.

QRO · Dec 13, 2022

Short of Dexcool specific for my car, I don't think I have bought any antifreeze for 10 years, and the last lot was bog old green stuff, so been looking at all the wonderful cocktails now available.

I like the sound of the 'HOAT' coolants, they have a bit of inorganic as well as organic. The inorganic additives get to work and passivate everything straight away, the organic additives neutralise things as they degrade. So the 'H', hybrid, makes a lot of sense to me.

But silicates degrade rubbers and plastics, so what to do.

I have found this one, which is 'low' in silcates but still a HOAT. I like the sound of it. Better than the green silicated stuff that appears to be in the 750 right now, is my guess.

MANNOL Antifreeze AF13++ (-40 °C)

www.mannol.de

Looks good, surpasses requirements and is ecofriendly it says.

Any opinions otherwise, please shout!

I'm debating whether to do the hose-through, or just run the engine with deionised water a few times. Maybe the latter as I don't have a long enough hose atm.

Yellow Submarine · Dec 13, 2022

I did the jugs of distilled water thing when I did this to my 600 last. Changed the hoses out for some silicone bits I found on eBay for very little money at the same time.

Only needed to run a gallon of the distilled through though…ran the water through until it peed out clear and closed the air bleed.

Topped up with the distilled and ran the engine long enough for the water to circulate. Pulled the lower hose and let the lot drain out. Only very slightly green. Installed the new hoses and opened the bleed screw.

Poured in more distilled water until there was no green tinge and added my 50/50 mix of distilled water & coolant. Started the engine and let it “burp” the air out of the upper hoses.

Closed the cap and opened the bleed valve slightly. A few bubbles came out and then coolant. Job done.

matt365 · Dec 14, 2022

If you're really worried about it, run it 50/50 with vinegar and distilled water.

If it cleans out the kettle, it'll clean the scale out of the cooling system.

Then flush with distilled water and run whatever coolant is good for aluminum.

I'd say forget the fancy coolants. Its an easy bit of maintenance. Just change it every couple years. Its a good excuse to clean up the fairings and inspect the bike when they're off.

I avoid the family for a couple of hours when I have to do "scheduled maintenance"; usually with a few beers.

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QRO · Dec 16, 2022

I went with the Mannol AF13++ in the end, seemed to do a bit of everything, 'eco' and very long life. Made sense to me, it's ordered and on the way. I figure it'll warm a bit next week (was -5C inside the garage last night) so might swap the fluids out then, give the bikes a warm-up, get clean fuel through.

This 'looking into coolant' thing has got me on to considering waterless coolants. Not something that I have ever considered before. The AF13 has a minimum 5 year life so has kicked looking at that down the road a way.

Chuckster · Dec 16, 2022

Know how many bikes are out there that are 10-15 years old with the original coolant in them and no issues? Tons.

QRO · Dec 16, 2022

For sure, but you can never know if yours is one of them until you check!

I think the L0 750 probably had it changed 5 years ago, it was well maintained in its early life as far as I can tell. Could be original for all I really know but looks good all the same.

I am sure my van hasn't had fresh coolant for 10 years. I have had it for 5 and I don't think it was particularly well maintained in the years just before mine.

Like you say, I think this happens a lot!

I would say 'fortunately' this concern occurred to me, because this latest bike I bought did need to be drained.

QRO · Feb 4, 2023

I gave it a crank today and started on the first stroke. Let it warm up past the thermostat opening.

I think I prefer to do this than leave it alone. Did this start of last month too.

I'll put it back on the road for March. Too much happening this month, will only have 'maybe' one chance to ride this month.

I really should have cleaned it by now, but was just too cold (to bother .. I'll argue that it's bad to wash a bike in the freezing cold, anyway)!!

I was going to show you guys what I did last year, see how I have cut a square of floppy but dense neoprene (solid, not the foam stuff) than hangs and covers the spring. There was so much dirt getting all over the spring and thrown forward into the engine, bikes are not a very good design really without 'this' mud guard. Works very well. It just rests on the swing arm at the front of the hugger where it moves the least and bounces up and down with it, but heavy enough it doesn't blow pointing backwards. Might not matter if it did, I guess.

matt365 · Feb 4, 2023

QRO said:
I gave it a crank today and started on the first stroke. Let it warm up past the thermostat opening.

I think I prefer to do this than leave it alone. Did this start of last month too.

I'll put it back on the road for March. Too much happening this month, will only have 'maybe' one chance to ride this month.

I really should have cleaned it by now, but was just too cold (to bother .. I'll argue that it's bad to wash a bike in the freezing cold, anyway)!! [emoji14]

I was going to show you guys what I did last year, see how I have cut a square of floppy but dense neoprene (solid, not the foam stuff) than hangs and covers the spring. There was so much dirt getting all over the spring and thrown forward into the engine, bikes are not a very good design really without 'this' mud guard. Works very well. It just rests on the swing arm at the front of the hugger where it moves the least and bounces up and down with it, but heavy enough it doesn't blow pointing backwards. Might not matter if it did, I guess.

View attachment 300094

Personally, I don't see the point in starting it during the winter. Mine is stored, out of sight, out of mind.

Riding in cold temps isn't fun for me. If I can't get leaned over in a corner on a sportbike, I won't bother.

My solution: buy a small displacement dual sport. It extended my season, as I can ride trails in the cold and the slop. Cheap to insure as a second bike.

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QRO · Feb 4, 2023

Yeah, not so sure about cranking it over myself either, but I have had problems in the past with leaving bikes standing. I do it now less for the bike and more for me (confidence that it'll run, on demand).

It's basically my main transport now, in the absence of a passenger car, though I will be doing other things this month so don't need it.

My insurance is already insignificant, you'd be surprised how expensive trail and enduro bikes are here. Sports bikes are now relatively cheap by comparison, they have lost appeal, there's a general move to naked/enduro. If I bought a trail/enduro it'd be a lot more than I paid for the GSXR.

Very poor access to off-road experiences here too. There are literally no off road trails near here for 50 miles. Maybe one day I'll live somewhere nearer that sort of opportunity, it'd be something I'd like. Can't do it now, though. Might never be able to if I run out of money.

matt365 · Feb 4, 2023

I'm in Ontario Canada. Our insurance rates are ridiculous, and our season is only about 8 months long. I have to go pretty far to find decent offroad trails, but I have some local (not exactly legal) single track.

I wasn't doing any longer distance riding during Covid, so an hour or two at a time on local dual sport style rides was my fix.

The gsxr only got 3,500km of use last year... hard to justify the insurance.

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QRO · Feb 4, 2023

The GSXR 750 for me was £95, I think, for 3,000 miles, and I now have another bike that came in at £46 for another 3,000 miles. Third party. I figure if I come off, and it was my fault, then repairing it will be something I'll be considering at length from the hospital bed.

I guess they think an old fart like me will be riding safe. Maybe I do.

Not sure I follow the logic entirely, I did quite a few quotes to see what the variation was, because it does not follow any natural logic. A CBR1100xx was even cheaper, some 125cc learner bikes were MORE!?

Funnily enough I came across an old insurance certificate from 20 years ago for my FJ1200 and it was £250, or so.

I guess that'd be more like £500 in today's money. I do recall the KR1S (faster on bendy bits and definitely ridden harder than the FJ12) ended up as ~£50 by the mid 2000's when I eventually sold it.

matt365 · Feb 4, 2023

My gsxr is just under $800 Canadian for liability only. ($2 mil liability, but still...)

My wr250r is $300, on a multi-bike policy. Thats cheap, as I've been riding for 20 years, no tickets.

Younger guys on sportbikes get screwed here... if they can insure it at all. I'm talking thousands a year. Sometimes more than the bike is worth.

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MadisonMotorsportUK · Feb 5, 2023

There definitely an advantage to being north of 40 in the UK when it comes to bike insurance. My 'Blade costs £87 on a classic policy with agreed valuation. The Foxeye is about £100 and the K1 just cost me £114, both also on classic policies. The VFR was £200 on a 10k/annum policy.

QRO · Mar 7, 2023

I finally got around to fitting the fairings back on, after removing them for a winter check/coolant drain.

Heh. "Fitting Fairings". I think I'll abbreviate that in future to "FFF".

Anyway, isn't it a relief after a few 'snap' noises and the bike is one piece again that you move the bike and there are no broken plastics on the floor?

Just plastic noises that they make sometimes. Phew. Heart-stopping noises!

One fairing already had two of the three knobby studs missing, doesn't seem to make a big difference. Loosing the last one would be, hmmm, problematic I think. Fortunately it is the top one closest to the seat, I think you need that one 'at least'. The front position is supported with the fairing screws and the lower knob doesn't do much that the whole construction can cope with once all the plastic rivets are in place, and I bought new ones to try to make that easier.

I think it's actually quite an easy job but I do it so infrequently I have to re-learn it each time.

I would like to get the frame 'knobs' fixed sometime, one is still wedged into the chassis hole (left it there, best place for it) the other is long missing. Is it worth trying to fix them?

QRO · Mar 7, 2023

I'd go for a spring ride but the roads are wet and it's still around 0C. Not sure whether to wait for April ....

Another winter lay-up question; remove coolant?

MANNOL Pro Cool

MANNOL Antifreeze AF13++ (-40 °C)

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